cordingly, and committed to a Committee Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a acof the Whole House on Monday the 16th of June next.

ARMY- THE CONDITION OF THE
ARMY AND THE SHORT-SERVICE
SYSTEM.

ADDRESS FOR PAPERS.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My | for doing what was done to a very large Lords, I was unwilling to interrupt the extent in England. noble Lord; but I must remind him that he has been guilty of a gross irregularity; A Committee which had been appointed had framed certain Resolutions, which some time ago received the sanction of your Lordships' House; and one of those. Resolutions was that although a Question of which private Notice only was given might be asked if the subject were not one that would lead to discussion, yet that if it were likely to lead to discussion Notice of the Question should be put on the Paper. The object of that, no doubt, was that all noble Lords who took an interest in the subject might have an opportunity of hearing what was said, and of taking part in the discussion. The noble Lord has introduced a topic, in the form of a Question, which, perhaps, of all others, is calculated to interest a large number of the Members of your Lordships' House, and lead to discussion; and I, therefore, trust that your Lordships will allow me to enter my protest against the irregu-average monthly strength of a Brigade Depôt : larity.

LORD TRURO said, he must plead frankly guilty of the error for which the noble and learned Earl had reprimanded him. He was not aware, however, when he rose, that he was transgressing any of their Lordships' Rules.

HARES (IRELAND) BILL.
(The Viscount Massereene.)
(NO. 89.) SECOND READING.

LORD STRATHNAIRN, in rising to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for the following Returns and Papers:

"1. The Instructions given by the Secretary of State for War in 1872 to the Committee on Organization:

"2. The number and their rank of officers of

battalions on foreign service or on first appointment on the Linked Battalion system who since the 1st of April 1876 have served at Brigade Depôts, and how long; also the number of rank and file and of non-commissioned officers, being the respective strength of the companies effectives, and their employment; and also the forming the Brigade Depôts, including non

"3. The number since the 1st of April 1876 of Brigade Depôt parades and drills, stating what drills, or movements under the colonel comcluding the Auxiliary Forces, Militia, &c. : mandant of the four Depôt Companies, in

"4. The annual expense of the colonels com

mandant, the officers, non-commissioned officers, and men of the Brigade Depôts actually and practically formed together, with the expense of concentration of troops, if any, travelling, officers mess, and other miscellaneous expenses attendant on the Brigade Depôt system:

5. The armed force, whether line, brigade depôt, first class army reserve, militia, yeomanry, volunteers, or pensioners whom the

Order of the Day for the Second Read- colonel commandant is authorised to inspect or ing, read.

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that during the last three years the number of hares had greatly increased in Ireland, and the object of the Bill was to allow Justices of the Peace to inflict penalties for keeping hares in large numbers. He would move the second reading.

call out for drill purposes in his sub-district, or for aid, if necessary, to the civil power:

in a sub-district under the orders of its colonel "6. The armed force and of what description commandant :

7. Whether the first class army reserve men

are concentrated in a sub-district at the Brigade Depôt stations for their seven days annual instruction, and, if not, where and by whom drilled, and in what drill:

"8. Number of recruits since 1871 tried for fraudulent enlistment, that is for having sworn, although under age, in their attestation papers that they were of the proper age; and what Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2." steps have been taken to prevent the award of -(The Viscount Massereene.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY said, the title of the Bill ought to be "An Act to prevent the eating of Leverets in Ireland." Ho certainly did not see why penalties should be inflicted in Ireland

'bringing money' for fraudulent enlistments:

"9. Any battalion, which on account of the Linked Battalion system and of the necessity of its being at home in order to relieve its linked

or other battalion at the termination of its

foreign service, or on account of any other rules of the Regulation Foreign Service Roster before the completion of its foreign service:

cause, has been ordered home in breach of the

system; and where, since the 1st of April

1876:

"11. Number of short service men not allowed to go on foreign service on account of the near approach of their term of service, and sent to the Brigade Depôt or elsewhere for the completion of their service, since the formation of the Brigade Depôt system:

"10. Number of recruits under eight months | Army, and that was the age at which service who have been sent out on foreign serthe conscription commenced to apply in vice; to what battalion in the Linked Battalion Germany. The recruiting age in this country was 18; but it was well-known that a number of men under that age enlisted in the Army. He wanted to know why the Government had not adopted the means at their disposal for punishing fraudulent enlistment? The 24th Regiment was composed of young men; but he believed that if its noncommissioned officers had been taken from tried and seasoned soldiers, instead of mere striplings, they would have steadied the men at Isandula, and have ordered the rear ranks to face round. If that had been done, and if a sustained and well-directed fire had been poured into the Zulu advance, the result would have been different.

12. A Return in continuation of a Return to an Address of the House of Lords, dated the 28th of February 1876;

13. Return of Double or Linked Battalions at home being stationed in the district or subdistrict of their Brigade Depot or Centre:

"14. Correspondence, if any, relating to the men of the First Class Army Reserve being sent to reinforce or fill up vacancies in regi

ments in South Africa:

"15. Any reports of the opinions of general officers commanding districts at home or in command of troops abroad of the disadvantages of the under age of the men under their command; also any report of the general officers or

other officers commanding the troops, and of the principal medical officer, on the number of men who fell out of the ranks from fatigue on their march to and from the review at Windsor

VISCOUNT BURY said, he felt some difficulty in replying to the noble and gallant Lord, because he had moved for no fewer than 17 Returns. He did not think it would be convenient for him to go into "16. A Return of the First Class Army Re- the general question of short service; inserve men who have volunteered lately, specify-deed, he was not prepared to enter into so ing whether they were in civil employment or

in 1874:

without it:

"17. Any Correspondence between the India Office, Her Majesty's Government, and the War Office relating to the unfavourable effects of the Short Service system on Indian finance

or Indian interests:

"18. Any Return showing whether Major Bromhead of the 24th Regiment passed a successful examination or not for a first commission,"

said, that military opinion was uniform
that the non-commissioned officers were
the
very back-bone of our Army; and
short service had failed to produce them.
That system had given the country boys
for soldiers, and deprived the Army of
the class of men from which non-com-
missioned officers were drawn. Some
had said that short service would in-
crease the military material that was in
the country; but if this had been so we
should have known about it by this time.
Our best officers by no means approved
of short service. In the Prussian Army,
where short service prevailed, and which
was, perhaps, the best organized Army
in the world, such was the importance
attached to having efficient non-commis-
sioned officers that it had been ordered
that all non-commissioned officers of nine
years' service should receive Government
employment. Young men under 20
years
of age should not be taken into the
Lord Strathnairn

large a subject at that moment. He was not aware, from the Notice which the noble and gallant Lord had given, that they would be asked to enter into such a discussion, or he might have taken the opportunity of consulting with the Secretary of State, or the illustrious Duke on the cross-benches (the Duke of Cambridge). The short-service system had` been adopted after full consideration, and was now in full force; and although, the noble and gallant Lord had stated many of its disadvantages, he had not suggested any alternative system. With regard to the Returns for which the noble and gallant Lord had moved, most of them had already been laid on the Table of their Lordships' House, and others had been presented to the other House.

THE EARL OF GALLOWAY considered the question of short service one of extreme urgency, and a discussion respecting it ought to be raised at the earliest possible period, in order that they might know what the real state of the Army was at the present time. There was such a difficulty in getting non-commissioned officers that, in a published letter, mention was made of an instance in which a man had been made a colour-sergeant after only 11 months' service. An important statement had recently been published to the effect that amid the hun

LORD TRURO said, he was not sure whether the Rule of the House to which the noble and learned Earl on the Wool-blots in it would be pointed out by comsack had called attention at the commencement of the Sitting had not been, within the last few minutes, violated in a greater degree than it had been by him. He was then in Order, and would again express the hope that, as there

should carry weight with it, the constant discussion in that House of details of military organization was not desirable; and, therefore, he should not say a word on the question raised by his noble and gallant Friend (Lord Strathnairn), who had brought the subject forward, further than that there ought to be a complete investigation, from beginning to end, into the subject; but in reference to what had been said by his noble Friend (Earl Fortescue) as to the ages at which soldiers were sent to India, he wished to read a passage from the Report of Lord Dalhousie's Commission, which sat in 1867, the golden days of long service. It was in these words

would then be in a position to decide whether large organic changes ought to be made, or whether it was only in small and minor points that alterations were required. His noble Friend (Earl Fortescue) said he was not satisfied with the way in which the present system had been carried out. He had the greatest respect for the noble Earl, who always said what he meant; but he was at a loss to know in what respect the noble Earl thought the system had not been carried out. Nobody would be more pleased than the Secretary of State and himself if they could fill their ranks with men over 20. If anyone could show how, without conscription, but by voluntary enlistment, we could get a sufficient number of recruits over 20 "A return prepared for us of the ages and years old, a great difficulty would be got periods of service of men sent out as drafts to over. Unfortunately, many of these India during the last two years, between the recruits were only 17 years old; but if 1st of January, 1864, and the 31st of December, they would wait until they were 20, the 1865, shows that out of a total number of 5,622, no less than 2,093 were under 20 years of age, and War Office authorities would be only 796 between 20 and 21 years. Thus there were too delighted. His noble Friend, how-more than one-half (2,889) under 21 years of ever, would find some difficulty in arriv-age, and in some regiments the proportion was ing at such an arrangement. He felt quite sure of one thing-that unless they largely increased the pay of the soldier they could not expect older men to join the Service, and that was a subject which required grave consideration. There was no doubt that all those matters would be fully, fairly, and seriously inquired into by the Commission or Committee. The noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) went into a number of details, on which he would have been quite prepared to meet him; but it was impossible to go into that sort of thing in their Lordships' House, and it would only be wearying to the House. In such an Assembly, details of military organization could be discussed in only a very superficial and unsatisfactory manner. He hoped that noble Lords who felt interested in these matters would be satisfied with the assurance of the Government that there would be a full inquiry into these and other grave points by a Committee competent to enter on such an investigation.

EARL FORTESCUE explained, that he did not wish to impute any fault to the War Office authorities, but only to the system.

VISCOUNT CARDWELL said, he felt bound to express his full concurrence with the illustrious Duke in thinking that, if there was to be an inquiry that

The Duke of Cambridge

much greater. Out of these 5,622 recruits, 3,947
of them were actually under one year's service.
were of less than two years' service, while 2,038
Of the Artillery drafts, one-half were under 21
years of age, and one-third under 20-nearly
three-fourths under two years' service, and one-
fifth actually under one year's service."
Now, as a rule, only matured men were
sent to India. During the time of the
late Government, there was an inquiry
in reference to service in India, and on`
that Committee were the heads of the
Medical and Recruiting Departments, and
they provided rules in respect of the men
who were to be sent out to India; and he
believed those rules had been acted upon
ever since, and they showed a striking
contrast with the rules in force under
what was called the golden times of long
service. He wished to ask, whether it
was correct, as had been stated, that
there was a difficulty in accepting the
services of men in the Reserve Force if
they wished to volunteer?
not understand that there was any diffi-
culty; but if there was, he submitted
that a strong Government could have
brought in a measure to remove it; but
as that had not been done, he thought
the alleged difficulty must be imaginary.
He supposed it was a mare's nest.
It would be a great advantage to have
the older men of the Reserve in the
Army if they could be permitted to
volunteer.

He could