EARLS. Chichester Granville Harrowby Minto Morley Waldegrave Down BISHOPS. Limerick BARONS. Ashburton Campbell Camoys Eddisbury Elphinstone Foley Howden Lovat Say and Sele ther the noble Earl opposite could not find | Lansdowne mittee. LORD STANLEY said, that the noble Earl must not infer that he approved of the first 30 clauses of the Bill, for there was one provision, relating to which his noble Friend near him had given notice of an amendment, to which that would not apply; he meant the establishment of a double chamber in New South Wales. Until he knew the views of the Government, he could not give an assurance that he would not join the right rev. Prelate, and his conduct would be further influenced and altered with respect to the Amendment of his noble Friend, if the clauses from 30 to 35 were to be still retained. EARL GREY said, that the best course would be to proceed to a division. But at the same time he hoped the noble Lord would remember that this was a Bill of great importance-that at least great responsibility was incurred in the rejection of it. On Question, Then the original Motion was (by leave) withdrawn; and House to be put into Committee to-morrow. House adjourned till To-morrow. "I have received your Address, praying that the collection and delivery of Letters may in future entirely cease on Sunday in all parts of the Kingdom; and, also, that an inquiry may be made as to how far, without injury to the public service, the transmission of the Mails on the Lord's Day might be diminished, or entirely suspended; and in compliance with your request, I shall give directions accordingly." MR. THORNELY begged to put a question to the noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown with reference to this important subject. He wished to know whether there would be any exemption in favour of the foreign correspondence of the country? Suppose a packet from America Their Lordships divided :-Contents 21; arrived at Liverpool yesterday with some Non-Contents 34: Majority 13. great amount, and letters of the greatest possible consequence. He wished to know whether there would be any exemption in favour of such letters lying at Falmouth, Southampton, and other places? expense. He did not grudge the expenditure of a proper sum of money for a House of Parliament which would afford due accommodation to its Members; but seeing the enormous sums that had been already expended, and that proper accom LORD J. RUSSELL said, that with respect to the delivery of letters, the direc-modation had not been provided, it was tions to be given by Her Majesty would be in accordance with the orders of that House, and therefore there would be no exemption with respect to the delivery of letters. With respect to the transmission of letters, the Address only proposed inquiry. MR. M. GIBSON desired to put a question with regard to the answer to the Address. He had only heard the words "collection and transmission." [Sir G. GREY: And "delivery."] He presumed that in post-office language, the word "collection" meant bringing the letters from the branch offices. Although the collection of letters in the large towns might be put a stop to by the Government, he presumed it did not follow that letters put in the chief office would not be transmitted. He supposed there was no intention to prevent the sending letters from the principal towns on the Sunday evenings, although the collection might be stopped. full time that the House of Commons should interfere to prevent further waste of money. He would give a précis of the proceedings which had taken place, from which it would be abundantly clear, that if adequate care and precaution had been taken, such extraordinary delay would not have taken place, and they would not have incurred an expenditure of 2,000,000l. instead of 724,9861., which was Mr. Barry's estimate. If there was to be an end of expenditure even at 2,000,000l. it would be some satisfaction; but no person could tell how much beyond that amount would be expended. It was their duty, therefore, to require a definite statement as to the further expenditure that was likely to be lincurred. None of the requisites which had been pointed out by the Committee of 1835, had been carried out. They required that there should be sitting room in the body of the House, for from 420 to 460 Members, with accommodation for the remainder in the galleries. Well, they had been sitting in the New House, and instead of accommodation for 420 or 460 Members, there was not accommodation for anything approaching that number. The lobbies were required to contain-one 1,800 feet, and the other, 1,100. They MR. M. GIBSON said, he supposed, al- had an opportunity of testing the accomthough no mention was made of the cir-modation afforded by them in case of a dicumstance, there would be no alteration with regard to Sunday newspapers. Subject dropped. LORD J. RUSSELL presumed that the right hon. Gentleman referred to the transmission of letters; but what the Government wished to do was, to carry into effect the orders of that House. It was not for him to say whether any advantage would be derived from the arrangement. SUPPLY-NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. (4.) 103,610l. for the New Houses of Parliament. vision. They had a division in which 287 Members divided, and he would appeal to hon. Gentlemen if the lobby was not crowded to an inconvenient degree. They might thus judge of the inconvenience when a full House divided, and he had seen an occasion in which 500 Members had divided on one MR. HUME said, the object of his Mo- side. It was likewise considered of imtion was to put an end for the present to portance that there should be accommothe proceedings of the Committee of Taste.dation for 200 strangers in one or more But he had also another Motion on the pa- galleries at the end of the House. But per, for the appointment of a Select Com- he would appeal to hon. Gentlemen if mittee to inquire into and examine the va- that part of the House was not required rious reports, statements, and plans of the for the accommodation of its own Memarchitect relative to the New Houses of bers? The 11th resolution of the ComParliament. He was aware that he was mittee of 1836 was, that there should undertaking an unpleasant duty in submit-be 10 Committee rooms about 40 by 30, ting these Motions to the House; but he had been requested by several Members to do so; and it was evident that if something was not done, there would be no limit to from 18 to 20 feet in height; ten, 35 by 25, from 16 to 18 feet in height; ten, 30 by 20, from 14 to 16 feet in height. He would leave hon. Gentlemen who had sat 66 port : "The Committee are not satisfied on the head of expense; and before any part of the building be commenced, or any vote be proposed to Parliament, there should be the most minute and accu rate estimate that can be formed." It was then referred to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to inquire into and report upon Mr. Barry's plans and estimates. in these rooms to speak of the accommo- The Committee made the following redation which they afforded. It was evident that the accommodation in the three points he had mentioned was deficient. The principal men in the House at that time sat upon the Committee which drew up these resolutions; and when Mr. Barry's plan had been adopted, the Committee stated that they did so on the express understanding that it could be executed for a sum not exceeding, by any considerable amount, the estimate submitted to them by Mr. Barry-that was to say, 724,9861." Now, he (Mr. Hume) had some reason to doubt the accuracy of Mr. Barry's estimate, for he had written to Mr. Hodgson, the eminent contractor of Bloomsbury, requesting his opinion of it, and Mr. Hodgson informed him that the expense would amount to 1,100,000l.; and when Mr. Barry amended his plan, he calculated the expenditure at 1,300,000l. On the 13th of June, 1836, he (Mr. Hume) presented a petition from eighteen to twenty architects of the metropolis, in which it was stated the building would not be executed for less than 2,000,000l., and that they founded their calculation on the expenditure of Henry VIIth.'s Chapel, to which Mr. Barry's plan nearly approached. Accordingly a Committee, of which the right hon. Member for Harwich was chairman, was appointed to inquire into the subject. He (Mr. Hume) put the following questions to Mr. Barry during the course of that inquiry: "Q. 218. The amended plans?—Yes. "Q. 272. Then are the Committee to under stand that the estimates that you have given in are on that general principle that you have stated, as to the quantity and the amounts, such that you can rely upon ?-Yes. "Q. 290. May I ask you, strictly speaking, what style you consider this building to be?—It is of the third syle of Gothic architecture, including the Tudor period. "Q. 404. How long would it take a person to make a detailed specification, and the working drawings, so as to enable a correct estimate to be formed of the whole building ?-At least a twelvemonth. That report was made on the 18th of April, 1837, and was signed by Lord Duncannon, B. C. Stephenson, and A. Milne. The gentlemen appointed by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to examine the estimate were Messrs. Seward and Chawner, architects; and they reported "That the new Houses of Parliament can be satisfactorily erected, according to the said drawings, for the sum stated by Mr. Barry (707,104.)" This was exclusive of the proposed embankment of part of the river Thames, the estimate of which was 44,000l., and the purchase of the site, &c., which was estimated at 85,000l.; making a total of 129,0007., which was to be added to the 707,1047. It appeared that a great many deviations had been made from the plan, whether on the motion of Mr. Barry himself, or at the suggestion of some other person or persons, he did not know; but it was full time for them to see that some limit was put upon the expenditure. He had been informed that very day that it was intended to take down all the buildings on that side of the bridge next to the new Houses, not to speak of the courts of law, and thus one thing would lead on to another, heaping up the expenses more and more, unless some control was established. He found in a paper published by one of the Commissioners (Lord Sudeley) in 1844, some remarkable statements as to the deviations made from the original plan with reference to the House of Lords. According to that paper, the original way by which the Queen's state carriage was to pass through the not great tower, had to be materially altered by Mr. Barry. A pillar had to be removed in consequence of the passage being wide enough; and the Queen's carriage, instead of going out by the way at first intended, was now to go by a subterranean tunnel-a passage of only nine feet in width. But as the width of Her Majesty's carriage was eight feet nine inches, he thought there would be some danger in passing through. If any person happened to be in the passage, he could not well es cape being crushed. He was astonished that any Government could allow these things to go on in this manner. He was not authorised to blame Mr. Barry; Mr. Barry might have authority for what he did. He did not mean to cast the least reflection on the eminent talents of Mr. Barry. He was ready to acknowledge his taste and imagination. He only meant to say, that having undertaken to make a House of Lords and Commons, he failed to do that. It was not many days since that Mr. Barry had received a gold medal from the Institute of Architects; and he begged to call the attention of the House to the language used on that occasion by Earl de Grey, one of the Commissioners appointed to control Mr. Barry. Earl de Grey said "We read that your predecessor, Sir C. Wren, himself laid the first stone of that superb edifice St. Paul's Cathedral, which is now the greatest monument of his genius; and I trust the same good fortune will await you. May you live to see the magnificent work now in your hands completed! St Paul's was thirty-four years in its erection; you have not occupied half that time as yet-and have made a progress which, if it had depended on yourself, would have brought the Houses of Parliament nearly to a completion; but the means of working have not been at your disposal. Your work is to be devoted to I know not how many purposes. Sir C. Wren had to deal with men who knew what they wanted. Sir C. Wren, no doubt, received his instructions from men who knew the purposes to which the building was to be dedicated, and what was required to carry it out; but, I am sorry to say, that is not conduct or proceedings of that House. His (Mr. Hume's) object was to ascertain who the parties were, and by what sanction and authority the expense of erecting the building had been increased from 724,000l. to over two millions. It might turn out that Mr. Barry might be able to clear himself from all those charges, as he (Mr. Hume) wished he might, because it was through no personal or hostile feeling to Mr. Barry that he brought on the Motion, but because he conceived the House was bound to have a full and candid detail of every expense connected with the undertaking. He called on them, then, to disallow the 3,000l. to the Commissioners of Fine Arts for one year; because by stopping the supply they would prevent their proceeding further until the building itself should be in a condition to be used, and then they could see whether or not the money ought to be voted. He therefore called for inquiry into this, as it appeared to him, inextricable difficulty; and he hoped the House would support his proposition. Amendment proposed, to leave out the "10" and insert the sum of " 100,6107." MR. B. OSBORNE seconded the Amendment. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER was not sorry that this Amendment had been brought forward, or the statement made by the hon. Gentleman, into which he had so fully entered; but he was sorry that he should have made that statement with reference to the whole question of the New Houses, when his Motion referred to a subject totally distinct-na ly, whether they were to stop the proceed -name always the case with respect to the building entrusted to you. Sir C. Wren's masters were few -yours are legion. I am sorry to say, that august assembly which has most to do with the erection of this magnificent structure has in it a vast number of men who ask questions, make sugges-ings of the Fine Arts Commission? This tions, and offer criticisms, while, at the same time, they do not know what is wanted, or, indeed, what they want themselves. It is not wonderful, then, that the architect should be impeded, and that fault should be found without any good substantial ground. And yet you have made a wonderful progress, &c. I have said the purposes to which it is to be applied are multifarious-there are wide and gorgeous palace halls, long corridors, short passages, lowly doorways, magnificent entrances, aspiring towers, groined staircases, every class of residences, porters' lodges, committeerooms, offices, and even kitchens. As one of the Fine Arts Commissioners I have had more opportunities than, perhaps, any of his professional brethren, of seeing how cleverly and how readily Mr. Barry was able to make the suggestions he received from parties he was obliged to obey harmonise with his own conceptions, and thus preserve intact the beauty and unity of the original design. Now, he left it to them to say whether that was or was not a fair description of the was the sole object of the hon. Gentleman's Motion; but nevertheless he had gone into a long statement with reference to the building of the New Houses during the last 15 years. He was sorry for the sake of the House, that he should have introduced these totally distinct subjects into one debate; but he hoped that the House would not accede to the Motion which he had made. It should be remembered that the House, on the recommendation of a Committee, came to a resolution that a good opportunity of benefiting and promoting the fine arts would be found during the time of building the New Houses of Parliament. That was determined on many years ago; and it was a determination which had been acted on ever since. It was only last year that an arrangement was announced to the House, which received its unanimous approval-mate, with all the expenses of the deeper namely, that instead of proposing year by foundations and similar matters which year the various objects on which the ex- could not be foreseen, was about 900,0002. penditure for the fine arts was to take Then he talked of the additions to the place in the ensuing years, thus constituting plan as having been attended with an themselves into what they were remark- enormous extra expense, whereas the ably ill fitted for-a Committee of Taste- addition to the plan ultimately approved a certain limited sum should be annually of cost exactly 20,000l. It was quite placed at the disposal of the Commissioners true that in 1837, after minute inof the Fine Arts for that purpose. And, certainly, though the hon. Gentleman might differ from the views taken by the Commissioners of Fine Arts on certain points, yet, on the whole, that was a more satisfactory mode of dealing with such questions than making them, in that House, the subject of interminable and unsatisfactory discussions. Last year, the sum placed at the disposal of the Commission was 4,000l.; and, anticipating a similar sum for the present year, the Commissioners had entered into arrangements with artists for works to be placed in the New Houses; some of these works had been executed, and were ready to be handed over; and if the House of Commons now withheld this vote, he need hardly say that an act of injustice would be done both to the Commissioners and to the artists. Therefore, whatever resolution the House might choose to adopt with respect to such votes in future years-whether or not they wished to put an end to all expenditure on account of the fine arts-so far as this vote of 4,000l. for the present year was concerned, they could not refuse it without being guilty of great injustice. Now, though it was a little inconvenient to go into those matters connected with the New Houses generally which the hon. Gentleman had introduced, he, nevertheless, would take that opportunity to address a few words to the House on the subject. He certainly thought it would have been better if the hon. Gentleman had waited till he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was able to lay on the table a return which would have given the House information as to the whole state of the casehow far the estimates had been exceeded, what deviations had taken place from the original plan, and such other particulars as would have enabled them to come fully prepared to the discussion of the subject. From statements made by the hon. Gentle man, it might almost be implied that we had actually incurred an expense of 2,000,0001. for purposes within the estimate; but, in fact, the whole amount ex'pended for purposes included in the esti quiry, a plan was decided upon, the estimate for which, so far as buildings were concerned, amounted to 724,000l., including the architect's commission and some other items of a similar kind. The actual estimate for buildings was 682,000l.; but the hon. Gentleman spoke of all expenditure, other than that, as if it formed part of the original estimate. Now, it did no such thing. When the original estimate was made, it was distinctly stated that there were many other purposes for which expenditure must be incurred in addition to those estimated for-such as the cost of site, the river wall and embankment, carrying the foundation to an extra depth, sewers, and so on-those which he had named amounting to about 183,000l. The House would see, therefore, that a large expenditure was necessarily incurred for purposes not included in Mr. Barry's esti mate at all. Previous to 1844 some alterations had, no doubt, been made; but the Committee which sat that year reported that though they had been made without proper authority, they were nevertheless great improvements, and they entirely approved of their being made. And here he was reminded of what the hon. Gentleman said about the removal of a pillar to make room for the Queen's coach. It was true that a plan had been made such as that to which he referred, including a pillar, but it never appeared in the approved plan, so that the pillar could never have in fact existed. As to the operations which had led to the extra expense, they arose from circumstances over which Mr. Barry had no control. The additional expenditure arose from improvements which were afterwards sanctioned by the Committee of 1844, or for purposes which had been sanctioned by the Commissioners of the Land Revenue, and by the Commissioners of the Treasury. For example, he found that for a supply of water, temporary buildings, and other incidental expenses, there was an additional expense of 23,000l., and for a better description of stone, the substitution of metal for wooden sashes for the windows, and other items, 82,000l. Then there was |