fair or just that they should step between them and that desirable object, because they could not agree amongst themselves on their religious opinions. The education which was given on the Continent had been referred to, and it was said to be irreligious. He denied the fact. What was the case in Prussia? The children were instructed together in secular schools, but there were separate schools where the different sects were instructed in their own religious dogmas. Mr. Cay, in his late work, On the Social and Educational Condition of different Parts of Europe, says— "Four years ago the Prussian Government made a general inquiry, and it was ascertained that of all young men in the kingdom, of 21 years old, only two in every 100 were unable to read. These statistics showed that in Prussia 1 man in The average age of marriage is about 35 for men. every 16 who married is 45 years old, while in England only 1 in every 21 is 45 years old, and nearly half of the men married every year are not older than 20 years." Then take France, and let them consider the result of the educational system there. Look at the words of the statute of April 25, 1834, upon the elementary schools:: Fox's) scheme; but it showed that he considered that secular education could be imparted, separate from religious education, without any detriment to religion. [The hon. Gentleman here read an extract from a charge of the Archbishop of Canterbury to his clergy, in which he stated, that "the literary character of the schools depended on the schoolmaster, but its religious character depended upon the minister."] He chose to give the opinion of others who could not be suspected, rather than advance any of his own on the Motion; because he was well aware that if he did so persons would not be wanting to call him infidel and atheist. But he firmly and sincerely believed that the separation was in every way necessary to produce the full amount of good both as regarded religion and education. He did not wish to see persons thrown upon the world ignorant of the commonest everyday matters. He did not want an education which left persons ignorant of the number of ounces in a pound, of the number of inches in a foot, of the name of the reigning Sovereign, and who did not know whether the months of June and July were winter or summer months. He wanted an education which would enable the pupils in after life to steer their course steadily-which would not leave them unacquainted with modes of industry-which would save them from becoming the dupes of the demagogues or the fanatic-which would induce them, from moral considerations, to postpone the marriage connexion till they were in a position to maintain a family-which would teach them; in some degree, what it was the Legislature could do, and what it could not do, to elevate their positionwhich would impart those larger views of science which would give dignity to their operations in mechanics, or in the factoryand which would finally enable them to profit by the lessons of religion, as, no doubt, they would best be able to profit from those lessons if their minds were more expanded. He did not want the value of education to be deteriorated by the inculcation of sectarian opinions. He knew several instances where poor men, who knew the value of education, were obliged to forego strong religious scruples in order to obtain instruction for their children. It was not fair to take this advantage over poor but conscientious men. The working people of this country were ready to make sacrifices in order to obtain the blessings of education, and it was not "In all the divisions (of each school), the moral and religious instruction shall rank first. Prayers shall commence and close all the classes. Some verses of the Holy Scriptures shall be learned every day. Every Saturday the Gospel of the days and fast-days the scholars shall be conducted following Sunday shall be recited. On the Sunto divine service. The reading books, the writing copies, the discourses and exhortations of the teacher, shall tend continually to penetrate the soul of the scholars with the feelings and principles which are the safeguards of morality, and which are proper to inspire the fear and love of God." M. Cousin, in his account of the Dutch schools, states that— tion either in religion or morals The educational "There is a total absence of all special instrucarrangements are altogether independent of any church, and the schools are managed by local committees. By the law of 1806, religious instruction is separated from all free, poor, and as to religion. We are informed that the Bible is private schools; and no instructor must interfere not read in the schools; and that Jews, Catholics, and Protestants of different opinions, are instructed together. Children are permitted to withdraw at fixed hours to attend their pastor for religious instruction; but this is not imperative, being left entirely optional to the parents, This system has now been in operation forty years. The wide diffusion of the clements of knowledge among the Dutch, harmonises well with the gene for their economy, prudence, and attention to ral character of the people. They are proverbial business; and they probably enjoy as large an amount of physical comfort as any nation in Europe, if not the largest." In the United States, in New Hampshire, where the population in 1840 was 284,574, there was raised for the year ending June 6, 1849, 149,237 dols. 49c. The total raised for schools was 159,430 dols. 38c. So far from levying an additional tax superseding private contributions, they had raised 160,000 dols., which was about 40,000 dols. more than was required to be raised by law, and 10,000 dols. more than was raised last year. In the State prison the total convicts were 94 -under 15, 2; under 20, 17; there were 17 foreigners, and 45 natives of the United States. The public library had 600 volumes. In Massachusets the year's State expenditure on January 1, 1849, was 1,166,623 dols., and the towns contributed 795,706 dols. [Here the hon. Gentleman proceeded to read various details as to the number of schools, scholars, population, &c., of the previously named State, and also of those of Pennsylvania and New York.] What was the result as to religion? We had the statistics of all the different churches in the United States, and the returns of the communities of various religious denominations was in the proportion of one in five of the entire population-a state of things which the most zealous religious localities of this country would be very happy to see. He would not propose education as a panacea; other efforts should be made, but he would say this, that education was an essential condition, and that, without it, the best measures would be inefficacious. People were apt to be misled as to what most nearly affected their interests. And what had the country now before it? The lonely and dark precipice of a continuance of burdens that now pressed heavily; whilst by the knowledge of religious principles, they would give the first chance of enlightened, devoted loyalty, and they would have the great mass of the people first humanised and then christianised. MR. HUME rose amidst loud calls for a division. MR. SPEAKER interrupted the hon. Member, and said that it appeared that on the former debate on this subject, an Amendment had been moved by the hon. Member for North Northamptonshire, which was seconded by the noble Lord the Memfor Arundel. After the noble Lord there was the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield, then the noble Lord the Member for Bath, then the hon. Member for Pontefract, and then came the name of the noble Lord the Member for the city of London, which was followed by the name of the hon. Member for Montrose. So that the hon. Member had already made his speech. MR. HUME declared, amidst much cheering and laughter, that he was not aware he had spoken before. MR. MUNTŹ wished to ask the hon. Member for Oldham whether he intended to abandon the compulsory part of his Bill? [Mr. Fox replied in the affirmative.] He had been brought up a member of the Church of England, and never having seen reason to dissent, he could have no objection to her conducting the education of the people, if he thought that possible; but an extensive acquaintance with the working classes led him to say that it was not at all possible. The working classes were against the interference of the Church. The question then was, should these children go uneducated, or receive a certain amount of education? Having employed a vast number of men in his own time, he could say without fear of contradiction, that there was a marked distinction between those who were thoroughly and those who were partially educated; the former were so much more open to reason, and easily managed. He doubted whether any education could prevent crime. The great cause of the increase of crime was the increase of privation. Sensible as he was to the advantages of education, he should give his support to the Bill after the statement now made by the hon. Member for Oldham; and whether the present measure were carried or not, he hoped the Government would take the matter into their serious consideration. Question put. The House divided:-Ayes 58; Noes 287: Majority 229. List of the AYES. Aglionby, H. A. Davie, Sir H. R. F. Walsh, Sir J. B. Tollemache, hon. F. J. Villiers, Visct. Villiers, hon. F. W. C. Vivian, J. E. Waddington, H. S. Vyvyan, Sir R. R. Walpole, S. H. Words added. Walter, J. TELLERS. Earl of Stafford, A. tion to-morrow. But I am so far disappointed in my expectation, that I cannot state that those communications have, at this moment, led to any result. At the same time, I have no hesitation in saying, and I am sure the noble Lord will take my word of honour for the truth of the assertion, that those communications are, in our expectation, likely to lead to a satisfactory result, and that the result, whether it be satisfactory or unsatisfactory, cannot fail to be known in the course of a very few days. Undoubtedly, under these circumstances, in my humble opinion, the Arundel and Surrey, discussion of the subject, the importance of which I do not wish to undervalue, might be attended with injurious consequences at the present moment, with reference to the state of these communications. Having made that statement to the House, and assuring the noble Lord that it would be my anxious wish that the discussion should come on to-morrow, if possible, and having no motive for not making this communication before, other than the hope that I might not be placed in the circumstances of being obliged to ask him to postpone his Motion, I venture to hope that, upon consideration of the subject, he will be led to defer this Motion for a few days. If he will do so, I will state that any arrangement that can best accommodate him and the House on the subject, I shall feel most happy and most ready to make. Main Question, as amended, put, agreed to. Bill to be read 2° on this day months. and six The House adjourned at five minutes before Six o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, June 6, 1850. 2a Parliamentary Voters (Ireland). 3a Fees (Court of Common Pleas); Sunday Fairs Prevention; Exchequer Bills; Sunday Trading Prevention. AFFAIRS OF GREECE. The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said: My Lords, I feel myself under the necessity of calling the attention of the House, and particularly the attention of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley), to the Motion of which notice has been given by him for to-morrow, and with respect to which I think it would not be doing justice to the noble Lord or to the House if I should not mention the existence of certain circumstances attached to the period at which the Motion is proposed to be made, which, in my opinion, would make it unadvisable that the Motion should be brought forward to-morrow. I think it right to state that communications have, within the last week, been going on between this Government and the Government of France, the result of which I certainly had hoped it might have been in my power to state to the House to-day or to-morrow, and thereby obviate the necessity which I now feel of submitting to the noble Lord's judgment whether he would bring on his Mo LORD STANLEY: My Lords, I am prepared to do full justice to the moderation of tone, and the courtesy which the noble Marquess has shown in making this communication and request. But I must be pardoned for saying that he has really strained to the utmost extent that Parliamentary courtesy which any noble Lord may be disposed to yield to the request of the Government. The noble Marquess will not forget that upon a former occasion, not upon the preceding day, but at the very moment when I rose to propose my Motion, I was met by a request similar to that which he makes now, that I would postpone it, because, as he said, we should be debating across this table a matter which would in all probability be settled in the course of a few days elsewhere across another table between Baron Gros and Mr. Wyse. Now, my Lords, since that period six or seven weeks have elapsed, and the affairs of Greece have been brought, as we thought, to a conclusion, Her Majesty's Ministers having laid The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: My Lords, in my own defence I must refer to the former occasion on which I had to ask the noble Lord to postpone his Motion relating to Greece. I certainly made that upon the table all the papers that they | ment and the Government of France, I will thought necessary to lay before this House. consent, though with reluctance, to postThe ransom of the ships, and the satisfac- pone the Motion of which I have given tion of the claims, having been actually notice for to-morrow. But this I wish paid, and our fleet having been withdrawn, him particularly to observe that I am to I did hope that the time had come when, understand that, settlement or no settlewithout objection or remonstrance, I might ment, on Monday se'nnight the discussion ask your Lordships to pass a judgment shall be brought on. I hope the noble and give an opinion upon what has occur- Marquess will give this assurance; for I red. I gave notice of the Motion some think that it is injurious to the public serten days ago, and it is not until now, upon vice, and unjust to the case itself, that the eve of the Motion, that a request is this question should be postponed until the made which, urged as it is by the noble public interest in it shall have slackened, Marquess upon the part of the Govern- and I, therefore, trust that he will not ask ment, I find it hard to resist, that I would for any further postponement. postpone it on account of negotiations still pending, which might be injuriously affected by the discussion. Now, it is undoubtedly true, that in the course of that discussion I would have to touch upon some of the transactions which have more re-request when he was about to bring it on; cently taken place between the Governments of this country and of France. But that would form only a portion of the matter on which I should have to ask for your Lordships' opinions and votes. It will not be so much upon the merits of the controversy between the two Governments of France and England that I shall have to address your Lordships, as upon the original demands which our Government made on Greece, the manner in which they have enforced those demands, the justice of the demands, and the danger arising from the manner in which they have been enforced, and of placing our friendly relations with foreign Powers generally, and with France in particular, in jeopardy. For these reasons I would be most unwilling to postpone, even for a single day, the Motion of which I have given notice; but if the noble Marquess is prepared to say, upon his responsibility as a Minister, that a settlement of great importance for the peace of Europe is upon the point of being come to, and that within the space of three or four days, at farthest, it might be expected to be settled or abandoned, and if he will say that, under these circumstances, the discussion of this matter to-morrow would interpose serious difficulties in the way of coming to a satisfactory settlement, I would say that that is a reason to which all considerations of party feeling or personal convenience must give way. And if the noble Marquess is prepared to make the declaration in his place, as a Minister of the Crown-if he will say that in the course of the next week this matter is to be settled between Her Majesty's Govern but then he had only given notice of his intention to do so on the preceding night. I therefore had no opportunity of asking him to postpone it until the day which he had appointed for it. But with respect to the present request, it is one which I have made with the greatest reluctance. I have been encouraged to hope, up to this very morning that I should not be under the necessity of making it. With regard to the noble Lord's demand, I have only to say, on my responsibility as a Minister, that it might be, in my opinion, attended with injurious consequences if the discussion should take place at a moment when communications with the Government of France are leading to a result which I humbly hope may be satisfactory. Beyond that I cannot go. And when the noble Lord uses the expression, of danger to the peace of Europe, I am not prepared to say that the differences now existing between the Governments are of such a nature as that, even if the pending communications should not lead to a satisfactory conclusion, the peace of Europe would necessarily be thereby endangered. But our great anxiety is to bring this question to an end with the goodwill, the concurrence, and the cordial co-operation of the French Government. We wish to act in perfect good faith, and it has been our sincere desire throughout to co-operate with the French Government with respect to the terms made with Greece. I hope I have said sufficient to satisfy the noble Lord. I accept, of course, his determination, after what I have said, and I beg to add that I have not been at all surprised at his anxiety to |