Boyland. Deputation incompetent to answer the question. Have done a great deal. Some time ago the Catholics glad of much less. (A cry of No! No!) Sub-committee the object of the General Committee. Devereux, of Wex. In justification of himself. Heard with surprise of Hobart's bill; the more, because knowing that a partial measure was not consonant to the feelings of delegates whilst in London, and that they were authorized by admission of English ministry to introduce a full bill. Wished, therefore, that some of his brother delegates, particularly his friend, in his eye, (Keogh) would give some explanation. Keogh. Ill state of health almost disables him. Begs of others to explain. If no one else does, he will. Fitzgerald. None necessary. Deputation procured what they were sent for, the King's assent. Keogh. Exordium. Necessary to take up the question a little before last meeting. Exertions necessary to get people to come forward to ask even for elective franchise. Journies to divers parts. Not expected just before meeting, that they would ask for more. Did so, and persisted in their demand. Sent deputation direct to England. In London, deputation resolved to see no body until they had seen Dundas, which they maintained rigidly. Deputation had several interviews with Dundas, one of the ablest men in England; they being little practised. Nevertheless, stood firm, and would not concede a point of their demand for the whole measure. Artifices of Dundas to get them to admit something, but all in vain. They persisted in steadily demanding equality of rights. From that steadiness, what has been got was got. Instance, in endeavors of Dundas to get the petition sent through him. Failure thereof. Again his wish to postpone-refused. Prayer of petition was granted, as appears by the King's speech. In the interview, when Dundas mentioned this, delegation steady. On last day, his impression was, that Dundas was convinced of the necessity of emancipating or satisfying the Catholics. On the last day but one, not so successful, but on the last, quite satisfactory. Words of Dundas, "go home, and judge of us by the conduct of our friends in Ireland.” (Devereux interrupting, "We could not drive him to an answer.") It is true. Never could bring Dundas to be specific, on account of the independence of Irish Parliament and Govern ment; but he did imply his assent by reference to conduct of administration here. North, now under a cloud of censure, therefore doubly necessary to show our gratitude. Dundas read to them from a paper certain words reflecting on "seditions," &c. Deputation refused to concur. Agreed to profess loyalty, but not to condemn any people by implication. Deputation with the Castle here. Mr. Hobart, during the whole intercourse, fair, candid, and honorable, decided to carry as much as he could in Parliament. He pressed a short bill, never agreed to in any instance, in recollection of Keogh. Hobart said, he was ready, if they were satisfied, to introduce a short bill, which they refused. Petition went for full relief, and was presented. Bill was introduced by Hobart. Difficulty to carry it. He pressed them to say they would find the bill substantial, which they refused to say on behalf of General Committee or Sub-committee, or as delegates, but did as individuals. Bill then enlarged by sweeping clause. If his opinion is necessary, it is, that had a bill for the whole measure been introduced it would have been lost. Catholics have great reason to be rejoiced and grateful at what they have got. Enumeration thereof. By these, what is withheld must be obtained by the elective franchise. Members of Parliament will be interested to patronize the Catholic cause. Great offices of state are, indeed, withheld, but rather painful to the pride than prejudicial to the interests of the Catholics. Elective franchise, a solid victory to Catholics, and present bill must fall in time by its own absurdity, as emancipating the ignorant and disfranchising the informed. Obligations to the King for his recommendation. Wonder that Catholic emanci pation has been effected, without a blow. Show example of spirit of union and incorporation with the people of Belfast, and prove we are desirous and deserving of their confidence. (Plaudits.) Devereux. Reason of expressing surprise at this partial bill, because contrary to sentiments of deputation in London, and also because the whole measure was sanctioned by English ministry. After the last interview, Devereux pressed to send off two gentlemen to Ireland, to prevent, if possible, a half measure. English ministry agreed that a bill for the whole measure might be introduced. First material error in Keogh's statement, neglecting to do justice to his own talents, by stating how he over powered the English Minister. Interview after the petition was received. Endeavors to bring him to a definitive answer. He said he would only expect to be supported by the Catholics according to the measure of relief received by them. Determination to bring him to a definitive conclusion at another interview. At this meeting Dundas did not appear punctually, which was very uncommon. Mr. Nepean took Keogh into another room. Lord Abercorn came in and expressed his surprise at the impunctuality of Dundas, which was so totally against his custom. This made them wonder and resolve to send in for Keogh, who came out, after having been absent three quarters of an hour. Dundas then appeared, and the deputation was introduced. Pressed him very hard for an answer, but not with equal skill or force on the part of Keogh. At length, three of the delegates rose, and the English Ministers; Sir T. French and Devereux remained sitting for some time, but were finally obliged to rise and go off with the rest. When returned, the others agreed that they had got a satisfactory and positive answer; but, on Sir T. French pressing them, it was found out that they had not. It then became necessary to send off the gentlemen to prevent a half measure. E. Sweetman. Mr. Keogh offered to give an answer to any particular question. He will, therefore, be pleased to give a particular account of his conversation with Sir Evan Nepean. Keogh. If the General Committee desire it? E. Sweetman. Only desires to hear of public matters, not private and confidential communications, but persists in his demand. Keogh. Communicated it already to the other delegates in London. Devereux. No! Only said that Nepean desired him to use strong language. Keogh. Anxious that revealing it may prejudice Nepean. Did converse with him for forty minutes, in which he drew out of him that strong language would be most efficacious. The only consequence of this will be, that future Secretaries will be more cautious how they converse with people. Recapitulates his past services. Devereux, to explain. Did say that Keogh, in the last interview, did not press the English Ministers for a positive answer. Keogh. Ill health; but the English Minister was so pressed by others, that he declared often, that, from the delicacy of his situation, he could not give more information than he had done, and that he had been more explicit than ever Minister had been. Defence of Hobart's sincerity; great difficulties in Parliament from state of Protestant ascendency; and doubts of success, from connecting our cause with the successes of the French. (Heard very coolly.) Randall Macdonnell. Motion unnecessary. All information known to Sub-committee and country gentlemen. This kind of examination is turning the General Committee into a kind of secret committee, and compelling men to accuse themselves; fishing for evidence out of their own mouths. The object of the mission was to get the King's answer; that answer was favorable, therefore they appear to have done their duty, and should receive the thanks of the General Committee. E. Sweetman. If all information be given, he must be satisfied. Passions and interests of monopolists, the reasons of our failure, as is said, &c. Narrative of proceedings of Executive Council. (See my journals of that date)-(a heavy long speech.) Dr. Ryan. Rather meet to congratutate each other on what we have got, than condole on what has been withheld. Time must effectuate what has been left undone.-(A very classical and elegant essay on the advantages of the present bill.) D. T. O'Brien. Moves an address of thanks to his Majesty to be prepared. J. Sweetman. Presents two addresses, and moves that they he submitted to a committee. (Referred to a committee of the whole.) Mr. Byrne in the chair. First paragraph read. Dr. Macnevin. Objects to the word "substantial," as conveying, or being liable to be twisted to convey an idea of complete satisfaction. Catholics still in a state of subordination and inferiority. Moves his own address. Keogh. Approves of the present one. The people will not be pleased with any thing like a spirit of demand in the address: (tedious and feeble.) Teeling. Agreed on two points. First, to express our loyalty as strongly as possible. Secondly, to assert, with all possible VOL. I-SS gentleness, our determination to seek for what has been withheld. Proposes an amendment. Dr. Ryan. The address is prospective. Proves it by several extracts. E. Sweetman, &c. Nothing. Sir Thomas French. Grateful, and desirous to show it in the most gracious manner. Nothing in the present address, which can possibly prevent applications in future. Devereux. Speechifying sadly all this day, &c. Notes on slips of paper.-Most interesting sight to behold the committee now, and to compare it with last December. This kind of attack has been of infinite service to Keogh. If they had let him alone, he would have gone down. 8th SITTING-April 17, 1793. Th. Fitzgerald in the chair. The committee ordered to prepare an address to the King, report and present an address, which, being read, paragraph by paragraph, was agreed to unanimously. 1. Resolved, That the address be forthwith engrossed. 2. Resolved, That the committee who prepared the address to the King, do prepare another to his excellency the Lord Lieu tenant. Mr. Edward Sweetman gave notive that he would bring forward certain resolutions which he read. The Chairman from the Committee of Accounts reported progress and asked leave to sit again. Granted. The Chairman from the committee appointed to draw up an address to the Lord Lieutenant, reported, and, the same being read, paragraph by paragraph, was agreed to. Ordered to be engrossed forthwith. 3. Moved that a letter of thanks be prepared to Major Hobart for presenting the petition of the Catholics to the House of Commons, praying for a total repeal of the penal laws, and for the firm and decided support which he gave to the bill for their relief, which he introduced, and which passed this session. And that a committee of seven be appointed to bring in the same. Adjournment to ten o'clock to-morrow. RICHARD M.CORMICK, } Secretaries. |