noble lord who had brought forward the measure) but still he thought there could exist no necessity for calling it out at present. Why call it out this year for 14 days, when there was no appearance of there being any occasion for it for years to come? Would it not be better not at all to call out the local militia this year, and to call it out for 21 days during the next year, when in all probability our foreign expenditure would be reduced in amount? It was not a force calculated to keep up the regular army. Calling it out into actual service could be of little avail where there was no dread of invasion; and when to this was added, the inconvenience of taking away from the agricultural districts one third of the farmers' servants for 14 days, when they could not be required, he hoped ministers would be induced to relinquish that idea for this year, and rather to call them out for 21 days in the following year, when their services might be more effective. In these different ways, the expence would be greatly reduced without the effective force being at all broken in upon. For besides the expence attendant on this establishment, the pressure upon the agricultural part of the community was to be deprecated. In one district he knew that the number to be called out for exercise amounted to onethird of the agricultural population-a circumstance which must be attended with great inconvenience and loss. By at tending to the suggestion he had ventured to throw out, they might afford greater means for offensive operations, to which alone he hoped they were now to look for a successful and speedy issue of the contest in which we were engaged. Mr. Addington said, that he wished to trouble the Committee with only a few observations on some topics that had been urged by his hon. friend who had just sat down, and an hon. gentleman (Mr. Law), who had spoken early in the debate, whom he had many reasons for having heard, then for the first time, with real pleasure, though he must own his pleasure would have been much greater, had not his opinions been so much at variance with his own. That hon. gentleman had contended against the practice of making the militia the medium for recruiting for the line on two grounds; first, that it gave offence to the commanding officers of the militia, and, secondly, on account of the expence incurred by the double bounties. He begged leave to assure him, that very few of the militia colonels remained adverse to the measure, especially since it had been made, by a legislative act, not a part of the military system of the country; and he applauded the public spirit of those who subdued their prejudices, or conquered their objections, in deference to the consideration of the permanent importance of increasing, by all possible means, the disposable force of the country. As to the comparative expence of recruiting direct into the line, or through the medium of the militia, he could assure the House that the difference was inconsiderable, notwithstanding the double bounties. He had made out an estimate from authentic documents; and he could demonstrate, that in no instance did the difference exceed between 4 and 57. per man, and that after the first volunteering from the militia the expence was nearly equal. The hon. gentleman who just sat down had expressed an opinion of the unnecessary expence of keeping up the volunteer force of the country. Of the incalculable service rendered by that meritorious body of men he could not express himself in terms of adequate panegyric. Perhaps he might agree in some of his hon. friend's observations respecting them. The subject had been for some time under the consideration of his noble relation; and he hoped the House would give him credit for there having been sufficient reasons why any new arrangement respecting them had not as yet been submitted to its consideration. As to the local militia, a part of our defensive force still more valuable, he ex pressed in strong terms his surprise that his hon. friend should have even suggested the propriety of abstaining from calling them out this year, when they consisted almost entirely of raw recruits-before they had even received their clothingand before officers and men knew any thing of each other. In case of ternal disturbance, without being previously brought to act together, they would be little better, if called out to suppress it, than a mere rabble. He implored the House not to apply too rigidly the prin ciples of economy to this valuable branch of our defensive force, which was as yet in its infancy; and to bear in mind that, in the vicissitudes of human affairs, of which we had even recently such striking proofs, we might have occasion bitterly to regret, that in a moment of internal repose and freedom from external danger, we had any in neglected to foster and improve that branch of our defensive force, in which the public spirit of the country had so entirely committed itself, and on which so much dependence was to be placed in case of any such necessity. To think this impossible was the height of folly, and he was sure that, instead of legislating on so dangerous a principle, the Committee would feel the necessity of fostering this valuable branch of national defence while yet in its infant state. Mr. Fremantle said, that the, hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Huskisson) had made it unnecessary for him to trouble the Committee at much length. With respect to one or two points, however, he wished to offer some observations. There was only an increase of 973 men in the household troops, and this was attended by an annual increase of 38,000l. He then remarked upon the want of judgment as well as the want of economy, in sending the horse guards to the continent at an extra expence of 2,000l. for new dressing and equipping them, without their being even fit for service on their arrival at the place of destination. These men, he said, had been raised to support the splendour and dignity of the crown, and were by no means intended for foreign service. Their equipments before they left this country, cost a great sum, and they would now become a constant expence, and so unfit were they for the species of service to which they were devoted, that no less than sixty of their horses died on the passage, which, with the delays that had taken place in their progress, rendered them nearly useless. These delays might have been avoided, by sending the regiment that had been brought from Ireland to take their places, directly from Cork to the peninsula, instead of bringing them to London. This was a subject which he thought ought to be strongly pressed upon the Committee, and which called for their peculiar and marked animadversion. The hon. gentleman next adverted to the recruiting service, and remarked, that the charge under this head was beyond the possibility of justification. The cal culation was at about the rate of 341. per man, a rate so extravagant, that he thought it could not be too strongly condemned. The expence of our staff at home too, he observed, had increased, even while our force at home had been reduced to less than one-third of its former establishment. Besides about 2,0751. a year to himself, it cost the country 5,000l. more to examine general Delancey's accounts; and really he did not know what claims the general had on the public to entitle him to any such rewards, especially when they considered the disordered and unsatisfactory manner in which he had quitted his office. This was a description of expenditure for which he could not account, and which, in his opinion, called for the explanation of the noble Secretary at War. With respect to the amount and expenditure of foreign troops in our service, the number of men last year in these foreign corps was 30,700. This year there was a small increase in the number, for there was an addition of 1,422 men ; but for this small additional number, there was an increased expence of no less an amount than 58,000l. This year, too, the money expended on foreign officers amounted to 42,000l. and last year it was only 27,000, This was certainly a system of patronage, but not a system for encouraging military talent, and he would ask the Committee, whether it was likely that this was the most economical expenditure of the public money which could be made? On the increased expences of the Military College he would say but little, as he approved of all that had been done in that respect, and felt himself called upon to give full credit to the noble lord for the admirable system upon which this institution was conducted. He could not help, however, mentioning one little circumstance, which, from personal observation, he thought might be remedied in this place. He alluded to the immense expence which was incurred for fuel. He remarked, when there, in the course of last winter, that there were not less than 200 fires lighted daily; and in the esti mates, he observed, that a sum of 4,000. was charged for fuel. This was an expence which, he conceived, might be considerably lessened, by having recourse to any of those ingenious methods by which many large buildings were kept warm in this great metropolis.-On the subject of the Barrack Department in Ireland some details were wanting; and the House ought not to vote the 90,000l. on the esti mates for that service until these details were given. It was a subject of serious consideration, that all these estimates were annually increasing. In 1804 they amounted only to 18,000,000; but this year they went so high as 29,000,0001. Upon the whole, he thought the House ought to examine diligently into the accounts, and see that they were formed upon principles of the strictest economy. posal with respect to one of the paymasters upon the Report of the Select Committee upon sinecure places. There was a Bill now in progress through the House upon the subject. It did, therefore, appear to him, premature, if not novel, to call for a decision upon one particular part of that Bill. He doubted whether the removal of one of the paymasters would have the effect desired. The result of it would be to place him and his right hon. friend (Mr. Long) on half pay, as the patent under which they enjoyed their places was a joint one. They did not enjoy half the salary of their predecessors, and he trusted that when the nature and responsibility of the office were considered, that salary would not appear too much. The salary appointed for the office in 1782, was 4,000l. per annum. Mr. Burke, who brought in the Bill to regulate it at that time, knew well the duties of the office. He was influenced, at the same time, by a principle of economy, and would not appoint a salary too great for the labour. That labour and responsi bility might be estimated from the com parative amount of the money which passed through the hands of the paymas. Mr. Creevey said, that there was one part of the estimates upon which he meant to divide the Committee, and which he would again bring forward in the House when the resolutions should be discussed. An excess had been stated by the noble lord, of 34,000l. in the department of the paymaster of the forces. Now he should wish to make a permanent saving in this department of 2,500l yearly, by flinging one of the joint-paymasters and his deputy overboard. He would rest his motion on the Report of the Finance Committee in 1810, which recommended the abolition of one of those offices of paymaster as a sinecure. Mr. Long, in his evidence before that committee, admitted that lord C. Somerset had a salary of 2,000l. a year, and his deputy 500.; that his lordship interfered but little, and that his deputy was sometimes out of England for a considerable time, without the public business sustaining any loss. The situation which lord C. Somerset held was, as he conceived, a complete sinecure, which the Finance Committee had very properly recommended to be abolished. His lord-ters in 1783 and 1812. In the former ship was, besides being paymaster, one of the generals of districts, whom he was himself to pay. His district, too, was something like a sinecure, for there were four or five general officers there, and but very few men. He should proceed in the same manner, upon that occasion, as had been done in the case of colonel M Mahon, although there was less difficulty in the present case, as this office was not secured by a patent, but simply held at the pleasure of the crown.-This office had been included in the Bill which had been thrown out in the Lords, but there was a more effectual means left them now, as they had the supplies in their own hands. On these grounds he should think it his duty to divide the Committee on the seventh Resolution, to which he would propose as an Amendment, That the sum of 2,000l. should be left out, being the salary of the noble lord, and 500l. being the salary of his deputy. Lord Charles Somerset said, that unaccustomed as he was to address the House, he should not have troubled them upon the present occasion, were it not for the allusion made to the office which he had the honour of filling. The hon. gentleman had stated that he founded his pro year it was 7,389,0431. and in the latter it MARCH 8, 1819. [1178 accounts. He could assure the House, that since he held the situation he had been never absent from it more than one be thought to be considered a sinecure. It was said that the whole of the business fell upon him; he could however assure them that whenever there was occasion his noble friend offered to share the labour. | Although the same sort of attendance was not necessary for him, he had always been ready with his assistance when business pressed, and had taken upon himself that part which related to Chelsea hospital, which was by no means a sinecure. He was convinced that the abolition of the office would not contribute to any public advantage, nor would it be prudent to diminish the salary, whoever held the office. The responsibility of it had been much increased, and he hoped therefore the House would not consent to decrease the salary. Mr. Long admitted, that in the Committee alluded to, the abolition of one of the paymasterships was recommended; but that office was not under the same cir-week together. Such an office could not cumstances as the paymastership of widows' pensions. The latter was an office in the gift of the crown, the abolition of which had been frequently recommended to parliament. He denied that there was a real excess in the expence of the department at all equal to what had been stated by the hon. gentleman. As to the office of paymaster of the forces, the emoluments had been nearly as high as at present for a century. The salary of paymaster of the forces had not been at all increased. In the year 1715, when the office was held by the earl of Lincoln, the emolument of the office was 3,7301. a year, and so it continued to 1782, when Mr. Burke brought in his Bill to regulate the army pay office. By this Bill in 1783 the fees were abolished-the emoluments of the office taken away-and in consideration of the responsibility incurred, the salary to the competency of the right hon. genMr. Creevey said, that he did not object settled at 4,000l. per annum: mittee on sinecure places, in 1797, it had of the amount of the salary; but he comIn the Com-tleman, nor would he even complain much been particularly referred to the Commit- plained of dividing the salary and splitting tee to report whether any reduction could the office, not for the convenience of the be made, and after full inquiry into the public service, but for purposes of parlianature of the office, and the labours attach-mentary influence, which was, unfortued to it, their report was, that the salary of paymaster could not be reduced without injury to the public service. If it were objected that the responsibility and the labour were not proportioned, he could assure the House that independent of responsibility there were other circum-only 1,500l. stances which added considerably to the labour. When he came into the office, he found an arrear of 25 years standing, for in truth no account had been passed through the audit office since the time of the passing of Mr. Burke's Bill. That gentleman, however great his talents in other respects, was, perhaps, on that very account the least fitted of any man for the dry details of office. Since he came into the situation fourteen years accounts had been passed. To him, therefore, the of fice which had been called a sort of sinecure was no sinecure. Since the adoption of the new system in that office the home accounts for 1809, 10 and 11, had been passed, and those for 1812 were now in progress. The foreign accounts were in the same state of forwardness. The result of the plan at present pursued was, that no irregularity or arrear could arise without the knowledge of the auditors of public nately, more attended to often in that House. Besides, the loss of one half of his salary was amply made up to the right hon. gentleman by a pension of 2,000l. a year, and a good house. Mr. Long said, that the pension was besides a house which was at least 500l. the pension granted to his right hon. gard to what had fallen from an hon. Lord Palmerston rose to reply. With remember, respecting the recruiting service, he assured the Committee that the greatest care had been taken by the department to which he had the honour of belonging, listing of soldiers.-He could not at all to prevent any unfair practices in the enconsider it unfair that the militia were al think it diminished their emoluments.— The next point that had been objected to was the number of foreigners in our army, and which number had increased. He denied that the foreigners in our service increased in proportion to the rest of the army. If it were practicable to augment our army with English soldiers to that amount to which it was desirable it should extend to meet the emergencies of the service, he was confident there was no one who would not prefer such an army to an army partly composed of foreigners. It was, however, with government, a question not of option, but of necessity, whether foreigners should be admitted into our service. Engaged in a sanguinary contest with an enemy whose resources were almost unlimited, as our army could not from the population of the country be recruited beyond a given point with Englishmen, it was necessary, as well as soundly politic, to make up the number required by the circumstances of the times with foreigners who claimed our protec tion. Those gentlemen who were of opi lowed to volunteer into the regular service. They were allowed four days to consider the step they had adopted, and every care was taken by the commander in chief that in the course of the volunteering no unfair proceeding should be had recourse to. Some facetious observations had been made by another hon. member on the dress of the guards, who had been called Orlandos and Rinaldos. He did not doubt but they would equal the valour of those heroes when they came into action. In reply to what had fallen from an hon. member, he begged leave to observe, that it certainly was not the intention of the board of general officers to strip the soldiers of their breeches and boots, though the accusation reminded him of an anecdote he had heard of a French officer in the peninsula, who, hear ing of the approach of the English army at night, leaped out of bed and mounted his horse in the exact predicament supposed by the hon. member. Their clothing was paid for partly by their colonel, and partly by stoppages of their money. The money was supplied in the first in-nion that the foreigners in our service, stance, by the officer, and then the portion to be supplied by the soldier, was repaid by small instalments to suit the convenience of the private. Another thing that had called forth animadversion, was the change from leather breeches to pantaloons; but the experiment had been tried in the artillery_train, and found infinitely preferable. The leather when wet was difficult to be cleaned, neither was it so warm a clothing. The various alterations made in their dress were therefore effected, not to make them appear fine gentlemen in the streets, but because it was thought they would be found conducive to their comfort, and beneficial to the service. Their helmets had been called fantastical and theatrical, but when the Committee reflected on the evils to which the cavalry were subjected, exposed in their little cocked hats to the effects of the heats and rain, or losing them, from the difficulty of keeping them fixed on the head, and consequently going bare headed into battle, it would be felt that it was much better that they should be supplied with a comfortable helmet, which could not be knocked off, and the metal of which would turn the edge of a sword. He denied, however, that those changes in the equipment caused any increase of emolument to the colonels; from all he had collected, he should rather who had been killed or wounded in the peninsula, were few in proportion to the number of British casualties, he wished to reflect how small a proportion of our foreign troops were on service there. It would be found, so small a number of them were there engaged, that the proportion they bore to the British was little more than as 1 to 10. Taking this into consideration, and comparing the casualties, it would be found that the foreign soldiers in our service had suffered, in proportion to their number, full as much as the British, or rather more. It had been observed that the returns in the Gazettes differed from the returns laid before that House. This was easily to be accounted for, as the Gazettes did not contain the discharges, nor the desertions (most of which took place here); but he could assure the Committee the Gazettes were entitled to the fullest and most implicit confidence, and he knew not of one instance of intentional faithlessness in any return which they had contained. That mistakes might occur in the hurry of making up the returns after a great battle, it was easy to conceive, on the part of the officers; but intentionally they never concealed the full extent of the loss sustained, and every case received was published in the Gazette. An honourable member la mented that there had been no saving |