bringing forward the question, whom he loaded with thanks, and to whom, in short he would give any thing but his vote. And then, at the same time, that hon. gentleman dealt rather hardly with some of the members on the other side of the House. He said the person to whom our colonial affairs were entrusted should be an individual of the highest consideration. No doubt. And to whom did his right hon. friend propose that the duties of the third secretary should be trans the secretary of state for the home department, to the president of the board of control, or to the chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster. It was not for him to dictate to the hon. member the course he should pursue; but he thought he ought to have said, when speaking of the necessity of having a person of the highest consideration, that he meant nothing derogatory to the nature or abilities of those individuals; that he did not mean to insinuate, they were unfit to direct our colonial affairs. What would the noble secretary of state for the home department, the president of the board of control, or the chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster, think of this opinion of their merits? He was sure, for their consolation, that notwithstanding the opinion of the hon. gentleman, the colonists would consider them sufficiently qualified to transact the business of that department. Mr. Ponsonby said, that some arguments had been urged against the motion of a nature so extraordinary that he could not refrain from noticing them. One hon. gentleman had stated an argument, not indeed for the abolition of the third secretary of state, but an excellent argument for the appointment of a fourth secretary of state; for he had said that the affairs of the colonies required the undivided attention of one secretary of state. He would be glad to know, if this were the fact, what became of the affairs of the co-ferred, in the event of its abolition? To lonies while the war was carried on-when the attention of the secretary of state was divided between the war and the colonies? Another reason for opposing the motion given by another hon. member was, that the secretary for the colonies had taken upon himself to act as legislator for the colonies. This was rather an odd reason; certainly it was a novel one. Another reason was, that the noble lord who now held the office in question, did last year write a most conciliatory letter to the House of Assembly of one of the colonies. That was certainly a most extraordinary act of condescension in a legislator, and exhibited great moderation of temper, great humility of mind, and great benevolence of nature. But, for his own part, he was inclined to think that the conciliatory effects alluded to proceeded not from the letter of the noble lord, but from the good sense of that House when it had under its-There was only one solid reason that consideration the disturbances in Barba- could be urged against the present modoes. It was not, however, to the cha- tion, and that was, that the departments racter of any individual that the colonies among which the business of the colonies should look; it was not from any indivi- was proposed to be divided, were already dual they expected conciliation, but from overworked with their own separate conthe good sense of that House; it was not cerns. But none of these persons themfrom the pleasure of a secretary they selves stepped forward to make such a dewould receive laws, but from the wisdom claration, because they knew full well, of parliament; it was not to proclama- that the truth of the case would not bear tions, and other documents of that nature, them out in the assertion. The absence they were to attend, but to their own as- of this declaration was the strongest reasemblies. Another hon. member seemed son why they should vote for the present to imagine that the House ought to agree motion. What was the motion? Did it in permitting the office to remain, because invite the House at once to abolish the he had a firm conviction in his mind that office? All his right hon. friend wanted it was necessary to have a separate and was, that they should go into an inquiry, distinct office for our colonies. No doubt to see if 12,000l. a year could not be that hon member's conviction was sincere; saved to the country. This was only met but it would have been more satisfactory by a general assertion, that the inquiry if the reasons upon which that conviction was unnecessary, because the office was a was founded had been stated. But nei-fit one to be continued. Then, let the ther cause nor reason was assigned by the hon. gentleman for opposing the motion of his right hon. friend, whom, nevertheless, he had so highly complimented for fact of its fitness be decided in the committee. If it should there appear to be an office that ought to be abolished, the House would perform its duty to the country, by ordering it to be abolished; if, on the contrary, the office were really a proper one, then they would acquit themselves of all imputations by ascertaining that fact by a fair inquiry. given by none but the secretary of state List of the Mr. Bathurst said, that the question for the House to decide upon was, whether the administration of the affairs of the colonies could be combined with such important objects as those which engaged the attention and occupied the whole time Anson, sir George of the other secretaries of state. When Atherley, Arthur the duties of each of the offices to which the Aubrey, sir John Bankes, Henry business of the colonial department was pro- Bastard, E. P. posed to be referred were considered, Burroughs, sir W. it would be allowed, that such a combi- Barham, Jos. nation was impracticable. The fact was, Baring, sir Thos. that the duties of the office in question, Barnett, James could be executed only by a single indivi- Bennet, hon. H. G. dual; an individual of address and atten- Birch, Jos. tion; who should take a particular in- Brand, hon. T. Brougham, Henry terest in that province, and attend to its Campbell, gen. D. duties with undivided assiduity. All ex- Calvert, Charles pressed themselves satisfied with the manCarter, John ner in which the present secretary dis- Coke, T. W. charged the duties of his office. This Carew, R. S. was gratifying to him; but the question Duncannon, visc. was, whether it could be administered to-Ebrington, visc. gether with any other office. He put it to the serious consideration of gentlemen, whether the duties of such an office could be well performed in conjunction with any other office. His majesty's ministers were animated with the strongest desire to alleviate the distresses of the country. He would challenge any gentleman to point out one instance in which they had not attended to retrenchment, and promoted economy to the utmost of their power. Gentlemen who had had opportunities of thoroughly knowing the nature of the duties to be performed in the department in question, did not think the existence of it unnecessary. The occupation of mind it called for at present rendered it of the greatest importance. In a different state of the country it might perhaps be dispensed with. When all the effects and consequences of the war were at an end, it might perhaps be abolished without injury to the public service; but while the country was in its present state it was indispensable. A noble lord complained that the inquiry proposed by the motion now before the House had not been made by the committee of finance, but the truth was, that this office was not within the scope of that committee. The information which that committee would have required could be (VOL. XXXVI. ) Elliot, rt. hon. W. Minority. ... 87 190 103 already resisted the application of a Mineralogical Society, on the presumption that the investigation of such subjects led to blasphemy [A laugh!]. With such decisions before them, he could not help considering it highly expedient either that the ministers of the Crown should take the necessary steps to correct such mistakes, or that the legislature should lose no time in guarding its enactments from such flagrant and dangerous misinterpretation. Surely, if the noble secretary for the home department could find time to write a Circular to the whole magistracy of the land, when the object was to abridge the liberty of the subject, he might spare some little time from his other avocations to guard the remaining privileges of the people from being invaded by the misconceptions of that same magistracy. He concluded with moving, "That there be laid before the House the copy of the petition from the Academical Society in Chancery-lane, presented to the magistrates of London at the general quarter sessions held at the Old Bailey on the 18th of April last, with any order of sessions made thereon." ACADEMICAL SOCIETY.] Sir M. W. Ridley said, that after the conversation that took place last night, on the Petition of the members of the Academical Society, it was not his intention at present to press the particular motion of which he had given notice for that evening. He still, however, wished to state, that it was not unlikely that on a future occasion, he should feel it his duty to revert to that subject. The House would hear with regret, that the decision so lately referred to, was not a solitary instance of magisterial misinterpretation of the late act of parliament, even in the city of London. Another most respectable institution of very long standing in the metropolis, called the City Philosophical Society, had also received a refusal to their application for a licence. This society was established in the year 1808, for the discussion of questions of natural philosophy; and he was fully confident, that were the House in possession of the regulations of that society, they were such as it could not disapprove. On the 14th of April last, in conformity with the enactments of the act, they applied to the magistrates of the city of London for a licence. The House must be astonished to hear that this application was refused, not indeed on the exact grounds on which a similar denial was given to the Academical Institution, but on the principle, that it was necessary to be made acquainted with the names of every one of its members, and to be in possession of the list of questions submitted to their discussion. The House would hear with still greater surprise, that the recorder of London was consulted at this meeting of magistrates, and had concurred in the propriety of the refusal on such grounds. Here, then, was a second instance of what, unwilling as he was to inpute any harsh or unfair motive to these magistrates, he must call a second flagrant mistake in their construction of the statute. If such, therefore, were the mis-Till the former of those points was provtakes of men exercising judicial duties in the metropolis, men who, from their station in life and general intercourse, must be presumed to be well-informed, and enabled to have the fullest information, what, he would ask, would be the misconceptions of magistrates in the country, respecting the operation of that law, deprived, as they were, of such advantages? Indeed, it was not left for the House to surmise on this point, as he had heard that a bench of country magistrates had Mr. Bathurst had no objection to the motion, and would have abstained from any observation at present, had he not been called up by the allusion, which the hon. baronet had made to a noble relative at the head of the home department. It had been said, that the noble secretary might be better employed in writing letters to instruct the magistrates in the interpretation of the law, than in writing circulars to abridge the public liberty. The hon. baronet had here assumed two things which remained to be proved, and which he, when the proper opportunity offered, would show to be unfounded; namely, that the circular alluded to was contrary to law; and that the secretary of state was bound to instruct magistrates in the proper construction of the late act. ed, the noble secretary could not be accused of abridging the liberties of the subject. He had acted on the best advice, and what he had done would be found conformable to law and justice. With regard to the second point, he denied that it was the duty of the secretary of state to instruct the magistrates in the interpretation of acts of parliament. Such was the doctrine held by an hon. and learned gentleman last night, who had said that magistrates were to exercise their $ own discretion in applying and understanding the laws, unfettered by the instructions of a minister. With regard to the case of the Mineralogical Society, the construction of the act was so absurd, that any law, however easily understood, might be perverted to any purpose by persons who could so far transgress the common rules of interpretation, as had been done in this case. Mr. Brougham.-The right hon. gentleman has correctly represented the observation which fell from me on a former occasion. I then asserted what I now repeat, that the minister of the Crown has no right to interfere with the magistracy in the exercise of their judicial duties. But the right hon. gentleman reprehends my hon. friend, on the presumption that he attached blame to the noble lord at the head of the home department, in not issuing his instructions to the magistracy respecting the construction they should put on the law of the land. My hon. friend intimated no such opinion. He merely expressed his conviction, that it would be as well if the noble secretary had taken the same trouble to guard the rights of the people from invasion, as he took in writing circulars, when the object of such communications went to the abridgment of their liberties. It is not now the proper period to discuss the merits of that circular. It cannot be denied that, whether legal or illegal, its object is to abridge the liberty of the subject. What the strict law is, it is not necessary that I should in this stage give an opinion; but this I contend, that in point of fact, the practice, as recommended in that Circular, was different from previous usage. There might be found an isolated precedent or two, perhaps, but almost the uniform practice was different. The true question for the House to consider was, not whether that circular was compatible with the law and the practice, but whether the secretary of state for the home department, had a right to assume the province of expounding the law, of dictating to the magistracy of the country in the exercise of their judicial functions. And on what authority is this power assumed? Is it by an exposition of the law of the land, or by a declaratory act of the legislature-the only expounders that the constitution recognises? No-this extraordinary interference is assumed on the paid, legal, professional opinion of two hired servants of the Crown, on which alone the secretary of state, also the paid servant of the Crown, dictates to the judicial authorities of the country. I rejoice to think that this proceeding will ere long be brought more fully before the consideration of parliament. When the time of discussion shall arrive, I am convinced it will be shown, that lord Sidmouth has been guilty of one of the most unconstitutional acts that a secretary of state has ever committed in the exercise, or rather in the breach of his duty. I trust also, that the exposure so promptly made of those unwarrantable decisions of the magistrates, will have the effect of preventing a repetition of such disgraceful scenes. It is, in truth, high time that they should be repressed, as already, and mainly attributable to that Circular, could be discovered indications of a very reprehensible alacrity in the perversion of their powers,-not indeed limited to the Bench, but to be traced also to their subordinate agents. I allude more particularly to the conduct of the town clerk of Liverpool, in a very recent instance, where a spirit had manifested itself that has excited, in every enlightened mind in the country, feelings of indignation and alarm. Mr. Alderman Atkins felt it right to explain the particulars of the circumstance which took place before the London Ses sions. An application had been made on the part of a society, who stated the subjects of their discussion to be of a quadruple nature, viz. philosophical, literary, historical, and political. This application was made at an hour when the judges had just retired, and some of the city magis, trates were on the bench, while preparations were making for arraigning some of the London prisoners. In this interval, the application was made, and a casual objection started which might have been easily settled, if the gentlemen, deputed to make the application, had thought proper to comply with the desire of some of the magistrates, who simply wanted a definition of the historical and political subjects they meant to discuss. He was satisfied that the magistrates who were at the time on the Bench, acted to the best of their judgment, and meant any thing but a capricious rejection. They were men who would never swerve from the principles of strict justice, and the rejection on that occasion by no means excluded the applicants from their regular form of seeking a licence at the quarter sessions. The worthy baronet was under a mistake when he asserted that the Recorder concurred, CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL.] Manners Sutton said, that it was perhaps unnecessary for him to apologize to the House for prefacing the motion which he was about to submit to its attention with a few introductory observations. His ob LORD SIDMOUTH'S CIRCULAR LETTER.] Earl Grey adverted to the opinions of the law officers of the Crown, re-ject was, to move for leave to bring in a ferred to in lord Sidmouth's Circular, and observed, that what was there stated rendered it still more necessary that the case referred to them should be laid before the House. It related to a question of the greatest importance, involving, as he conceived, a departure from the practice of the constitution, and a violation of the law of the land. He should, therefore, move on Tuesday for the case referred to the law officers, and should then make observations upon the whole question. In the Opinion of the law officers he observed a reference made to an opinion of a learned predecessor of theirs, respecting the case of Thomas Spence and Alexander Hogg, in 1801. He thought it of great importance that every information respecting this question should be before the House; and therefore, if there was no objection, he would now move for that opinion. bill to amend and consolidate the different acts for regulating the residence of the clergy. In the first place, he begged leave shortly to state what the course hitherto pursued by parliament had been toward the accomplishment of that end, namely, the enforcement of residence on the benefices held by spiritual persons. The act of Henry 8th whatever had been its merits originally, or its ultimate practical inconvenience, remained in full force till the 43d of the present king. This act, which was then substituted for the former statute, was prepared by his right hon. and learned friend, the member for the university of Oxford (Sir W. Scott) and gave certain powers to common informers, which had been perverted a few years ago into an instrument of grievous injustice and oppression. To such an extent had the system of persecution been carried, that parliament felt itself bound to interfere by the extraordinary step of enacting, that all the ex The Earl of Liverpool thought that there was no opinion respecting the cases referred to of Thomas Spence and Alexander Hogg to be found amongst the pa-isting prosecutions under the statuté pers of the office; but that instead of being an opinion given, it was an opinion acted upon. should be suspended, and the temporary act of the 54th of the king was passed. The clause by which it was made temporary, was not founded upon the consideration that the evil also was of a temporary nature, but for the purpose of afford The Lord Chancellor said, the cases referred to of Spence and Hogg must have occurred when he had ceased to be attorney-general, as he had no recollec-ing a future opportunity of bringing the tion of it. He thought, however, that whole subject in the form of some general the opinion referred to was not one given, and digested measure, before the atten but one acted upon, and that Spence and tion of the House. This was expedient, Hogg were held to bail either by justices both for the defence of the clergy, and for of the peace or judges of the King's-bench, the due performance of their duties to the he could not recollect which. He would, public. The act of the 54th of the king however, inquire and obtain the requisite was on the eve of expiring, the conseinformation, if the noble lord would post-quence of which would be the revival, in pone his motion. all its parts, of the act of the 43d, and the Earl Grey agreed to postpone his mo- exposure of the clergy to all those hardtion, in consequence of what had been so ships and inconveniences from which it candidly stated by the noble and learned had been judged necessary to relieve them lord. He could not discover what autho- on a former occasion by a very unusual prority there was previous to the Circular, for ceeding. Assuming, therefore, that it was persons being held to bail in the cases not proper to leave the law in its present alluded to, by justices of peace, and it state, or to throw the beneficed clergy headwas of the greatest importance to ascer-long into the grasp of common informers, tain it. he apprehended that it was still advisable |