The Lord Chancellor agreed in opinion with the noble lord, and observed, that if they were to enter into discussions with respect to what had been said in newspapers, regarding what had passed in that House, he could not see where it was to end. He himself had been grossly slandered in the newspapers within these three days, but he should be ashamed of himself if he were to take notice of it within that House. Lord Holland said, he had no wish in what he said, to prevent the right rev. prelate from explaining what he thought necessary, with regard to his own speech. The bishop of Ossory was about to rise again, but there being a cry of no; no; his lordship did not persist, and the conversation ended. THE PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RESPECTING THE CONTINUANCE OF SEDITIOUS PRACTICES].-Lord Sidmouth presented the following Message from the Prince Regent: "GEORGE P.R. "His royal highness the Prince Regent, acting in the name and on the behalf of his majesty, has given orders that there be laid before the House of Lords, papers containing information respecting the continuance of practices, meetings, and combinations, in different parts of the kingdom, to which, at the commencement of the present session of parliament, his royal highness called the attention of the House, and which are still carried on in such a manner, and to such an extent, as are cal culated to disturb the public tranquillity, and to endanger the security of the established constitution of these realms. "His royal highness recommends to the House of Lords to take these papers into their immediate and serious consideration. "GEORGE P. R." The Message having been read, Lord Sidmouth observed, that it was with very painful feelings that he brought down a message of such a nature, but he trusted their lordships would do him the justice to believe that it was only the strongest sense of duty that could have prompted the advisers of the Prince Regent to counsel his royal highness to send down such a message. It was for their lordships to determine what course of proceeding should be adopted with regard to the message. They would probably not object to his first motion for an address to the Prince Regent, thanking his royal highness for his communication, and declaring their intention of taking the papers into their immediate and serious consideration; he trusted also that they would not object to the motion which he afterwards intended to make, for referring these papers to a committee of secrecy; but instead of a new ballot, he would suggest that the same members who had sat on the former committee should be invited to this, with the exception of a noble duke (Bedford), who was prevented by the state of his health from attending the former committee, and who had signified a wish that he might not be appointed on the present. The noble lord then moved an address. Earl Grey said, he did not object to an address of thanks, but he wished it to be understood that he did not thereby pledge himself as to any ulterior proceeding. The address was agreed to. SECRET COMMITTEE APPOINTED.] Lord Sidmouth rose again, and observed, that he was not acquainted with any instances on the Journals in which a com mittee was moved for on the same day in which a message was brought down from the Throne; but the hands of parliament were not to be tied up, merely because there was no precedent for such a prousual course of moving for the comceeding. The object intended by the mittee on the following day was, to prevent the House from being taken by surprise. His noble friend had obviated such an objection in the present case, expected to bring down the Message, by giving notice of the day on which he and of his intention to move for the comfore, could say that the House was taken mittee on the same day. No one, thereby surprise. If any other mode of proceeding than by committee was proposed, and an interval was necessary, in order to compare their respective merits, he would allow that such a consideration would furnish a good reason for delay; but no such proposal had been made. All they were called upon to do was, to pledge themselves to an immediate consideration of the subject, with which view he should move, That the papers be referred to a committee of secresy. Earl Grey said, that the words "immediate consideration," used in the address, ought not to be understood as pledging any member to more than such an immediate consideration as was consistent with motion, had been laid before the previous committee: it was the copy of a hand-bill circulated in the city of Norwich during the late election, and in favour of the candidate who professed principles corresponding with those of his majesty's government. It began thus: "Englishmen, what has caused the highprice of bread? A. The corn bill. Q. Who aided that unjust and cruel measure which grinds the poor industrious the known forms of parliament. The noble secretary of state had confessed that there were no precedents in his favour, at least he had stated none. The noble secretary had asked, what was to preclude the House from establishing a precedent? Certainly nothing, provided it were convenient or necessary; but in a most important measure, which was ultimately to affect the rights and liberties of the whole people of England, it was impossible to proceed with too much deliman to the earth, and entails misery and beration. If one question more than ano- starvation upon his helpless family? ther required a strict observance of all A. The man who takes the freeholders of forms, it was that now brought under the Norfolk by the nose, and leads them where view of the House; the onus, therefore, he pleases.-Q. Who oppressed the indid not lie upon him to prove the incon- dustrious little farmer, that virtuous and venience of this needless dispatch, but the independent member of the community, noble secretary was bound to show that and incorporated his land with his own, there was some urgent and uncontrol- for the purpose of swelling his already lable necessity, requiring the abandon- bulky estate? A. The proud and unfeelment of the ordinary practice. The ing despot of Norfolk, who is a tool of message, indeed, and the address, pledged others.-Q. Who is it that, by the enorthe House to nothing; but they gave the mously extensive use of machinery, not oncountry but too much reason to appre- ly in agriculture, but in manufactures, has hend that a measure would be once more reduced thousands to a state of pauperism, resorted to, which was not the true re- madness, and despair, which has led to medy for its distresses and its difficulties. the commission of crimes at which huHe was willing to wait for the decision of manity shudders? A. He who takes the committee, hoping that it would pro- upon himself the name and style of patriot. ceed seriously and anxiously to make the Q. Shall this system have no end, or shall most minute inquiries into the real state the feelings of mankind be still farther of the country; and hoping, too, that outraged and trampled upon? A. No! with the warning it had already received, rise and do your duty." it would not be satisfied upon any point, without the best evidence that the nature of the case admitted of the truth of the allegations. He trusted, too, that the members would attend more strictly than heretofore to the characters and conduct of those who supplied information; that they would not forget that they came forward in support of the measures of government, and to propagate rumours, hazardous, not merely to individuals, but to the state. If it should be found, on this new inquiry, that any part of the intelligence that influenced the former report had been given under any peculiar or disqualifying bias, he hoped it would now be rejected, and that the motives and situations of all the witnesses would not be left out of the account. The noble secretary had appeared at a loss what to say in favour of the re-appointment of the committee; he seemed at a loss for a reason; but he (earl Grey) would read to the House a paper, than which nothing more dangerous or inflammatory, nothing more calculated to produce disorder and com He appealed to the House, whether any of the papers submitted to the last committee had been framed in a more diabolical spirit? Did it not touch upon all the topics of discontent? Did it not address itself to the lowest and the worst passions by which the species was degraded? The corn bill, a measure of government, was attacked; the employment of machinery was used as a handle for popular discontent. It had unquestionably the most dangerous tendency. He was informed that it could be proved, beyond doubt, that this nefarious publication had proceeded from a person with whom the noble secretary had held recently a correspondence; who was at the head of a society called the Knights of Brunswick-one of those political associations to which ministers had no objection, and which professed about the same principles in England that were promulgated by the Orange societies in Ireland, and a spice of which was contained in the hand-bill he had just read-principles, wholly incompatible with those established at that revolution which had seated the present family on the throne of these kingdoms. He hoped that the committee, if re-appointed, would not fail to investigate these matters; and that the imprudent and inflammatory productions of the supporters of the present system would not be forgotten, while every endeavour was used to detect the errors of those who had been active on the opposite side of the question. He made this remark because at the present moment government were holding out lures and incitements to informers of all descriptions, to bring forward budgets of falsehoods agreeable to their employers. What necessity had been shown for this irregular rapidity? The Habeas Corpus suspension bill did not expire until next month. Why could not this message have been deferred until the decision of the pending trials? These were questions to which no satisfactory answer had been given; and until they were answered, it would become the House to pause before it deserted its ancient and wholesome precedents. He was glad to find that the noble secretary did not mean to re-appoint the committee by ballot: he detested any thing like hypocrisy; and to pretend to name a committee by ballot, as if the choice were free from the influence of the Crown, was a fraud and an insult upon the people of England. A ballot was, in truth, the most convenient mode by which ministers could select the friends they wished to be nominated. He would, therefore, move the previous question. The noble earl had alluded to the report of the former committee, but he could say, that that committee was so constituted, as to embrace persons of different political opinions, and that notwithstanding much difference upon other points, they were all unanimous in recommending the suspension of the Habeas Corpus act. The noble lord had also alluded to a proceeding which had taken place at a con tested election. He had never heard of the hand-bill until the noble lord had produced it; but he was surprised to think that any one could suppose it agreeable to the government when the corn-bill, which was brought in by that very administration, and which was only supported by the silent vote of the individual alluded to, was made the subject of animadversion. All hand-bills, calculated to inflame the minds of the populace, should ever be reprobated by him; but, it was well known that such publications would take place at popular elections. He trusted that the lesson would be felt; but could see no reason for agreeing to the motion of the noble earl. Earl Grosvenor heartily joined in the regret expressed by his noble friend that the royal message, threatening such dreadful consequences, had been sent down to parliament. Under such circumstances, all due forms ought to be rigidly observed. A departure from the established practice might be attended with the most dangerous consequences, as on some future occasion the proceedings of that night might be quoted as an authority, The Earl of Liverpool said, that his when the ministers wished to carry in haste noble friend had not asserted that no pre- some arbitrary and unconstitutional meacedent existed for the step proposed, but sure. Under the present circumstances, that he was not at that moment prepared such a neglect of established forms could to produce one exactly analogous. It not but be viewed with an eye of suspicion. could not be alleged that the House was taken by surprise, because even notice of the message (a course not usually adopted) had been given. The very appearance of the House, the fulness of the benches, was an evidence that more than formal business was expected. The postponement of this motion for even a day or two, at this late period of the session, might be attended with great inconvenience. Nothing but a strong sense of duty could have induced ministers to adopt a course so unpopular. Whatever odium might attach to them in consequence, they were ready to sustain: they had acted under a conviction of duty, and from that duty they would not shrink. Earl Spencer acquitted the noble secretary of all intention to take the House by surprise: the notice of the message put an end to all doubt upon that point. The question was only this-whether on a subject of such magnitude, the reference of the papers to the committee should be postponed for two days: and recollecting the measures to which the report of the former committee had led, he would say, that if many precedents had been adduced in favour of precipitation, he should have deprecated any obedience to them: no number of precedents could satisfy him that the House should renew, without the utmost caution and repugnance, a measure giving powers unknown to the constitution to individuals who might abuse them. True it was, that the House had not been taken by surprise; but although previous notice of the message had been given, that would not appear upon the Journals; so that in after times the proceeding of this night might be quoted as an authority, not merely for voting an address, but for immediately, and without inquiry, referring papers sent down with it to a committee of secrecy. Might not such a precedent be employed on some distant occasion for the most dangerous purposes? Had the noble secretary stated any peculiar urgency; had he told the House that an insurrection had broken out, or even that it was apprehended, it might have been proper to proceed with all possible dispatch. On the contrary, ministers had themselves delayed for ten days, and then they called upon the House to make up for the time they had lost, by the abandonment of its acknowledged rules. If the message had merely referred to an individual, he should have objected to such needless precipitation; but when it respected the rights and freedom of the whole nation, he could not but resist it to the utmost of his power. With regard to the composition of the late committee, it was, in his opinion, unobjectionable. For all the noble lords, who were members of it he had great regard, but for some he entertained a more particular respect. Their lordships would not be at a loss to understand that he alluded to those noble lords with whom he was accustomed to act. He confessed, at the same time, that he could not see sufficient ground, so far as his own knowledge went, for the measures which had resulted from the appointment of that committee: but at the time the report was made, he considered himself bound to respect the authority whence it proceeded. Circumstances, however, soon occurred which excited greater doubts in his mind than he had before entertained on the subject; as they threw, he thought, discredit on some of the statements of the report. All this was calculated to render him more unwilling to give his assent to any new measures of the same kind. He hoped, there fore, that in the inquiry about to be gone into, care would be taken that the facts stated should be well ascertained, and that their lordships would not be satisfied with the mere declaration of an opinion without strict investigation. The measure now proposed was of infinitely more importance than that which they had already adopted. (VOL. XXXVI.) They were now asked to do away the most important privilege of the constitution, not merely for a limited time, and during the sitting of parliament, but for an un limited time, and whilst parliament was not sitting. If there was a real necessity for the measure, let that necessity be clearly shown; but he trusted parliament would not agree to any restraint on the liberty of the subject without clear and satisfactory proof of that necessity. As to the present question, he objected to the precedent which the mode of proceeding proposed by the noble viscount would establish. The Marquis of Buckingham thought the present question had nothing to do with the inquiries which were to be the objects of the consideration of the committee, and ought to rest entirely on its own merits. Their lordships had not now to make up their minds as to the necessity of any measures, but to decide whether there should be a committee or not. Sufficient notice had, in his opinion, been given; and what their lordships had now to consider was, whether a prima facie case had been made out for any committee at all. Now, he must contend, that such a case had been fully made out by the report of the former committee. The first duty of parliament, when such a communication as that which had been delivered was brought down from the throne was, to take care that not a moment should be delayed in entering on an inquiry. If no necessity existed for the measures now in force-if the state of the country was no longer what it had been proved to betheir lordships ought not to let a moment elapse before the laws which had been passed were repealed; but when the ministers of the Crown stated that a necessity for the continuance of those measures did exist, it was the duty of the House to enter into an immediate inquiry on the subject. Lord Holland was not a little astonished at what had fallen from his noble friend. The noble viscount regretted to have to bring down messages like that which had been that day submitted to the House, though he contended for the necessity of the measures he proposed. That he should be anxious for forwarding his measures without delay was what he could easily conceive, but he could not understand why other noble lords should show an extraordinary impatience for the continuance of measures, the object of which (3 K) was to subvert that system of liberty which had been established and maintained by our ancestors. It was true, the noble Ford had given ten days notice that he would bring down the message; but this had nothing to do with the present motion, which was a mere dry question of prece dent. The noble lord who had brought down the message considered a question of precedent as of very little moment. He disdained to be bound by considerations of so dull a nature as mere matters of form. He (lord H.) confessed, however, that he did not think so lightly of the subject. He could not carry his mind to that flight of Pindaric irregularity which the noble viscount appeared to have attained. Other noble lords, not so totally careless about precedents, had called for proof of their being none. Now it was singular enough that the onus probandi should be expected from those who said there were no precedents, rather than from those who asserted that they did exist. But his noble friend had said there was a prima facie case made out for the continuance of the measures proposed by ministers. This reminded him of the transition from war to peace-though that transition had now lasted, if not so long as some wars, at least as long as many a peace-being cited as a reason for the continued distress of the country. Now, the report of the last committee was to be taken as prima facie evidence of the continuance of disaffection. The next report would afford a new prima facie evidence; and so they might go on ad infinitum, without ever wanting a ground to deprive the people of their rights and liberties. What had passed with respect to the late report, would, he hoped, convince any secret committee that might henceforth be appointed, of the necessity of investigating with the greatest strictness the validity of the evidence submitted to their consideration. Their lordships remained without any information as to the persons who had been examined; and though it had been offered to be proved at the bar that statements in the report of the committee were incorrect, the evidence so offered had not been accepted. From these circumstances it was to be concluded that the report had not been the result of a fair inquiry; and that must be a very good reason with plain men for saying, that such a report could not be prima facie evidence of the necessity of continuing the suspension of the Habeas Corpus act. The ministers had asserted that great danger to the constitution existed; they had asked for extraordinary powers to enable them to avert that dan ger. Great and extraordinary powers had been granted them, and they had possessed them for three months; but instead of removing the danger, as they pretended they would, they ask for the continuance of the same powers. This was a proof that the cure to which they had resorted was not the proper remedy for the disease. On these grounds he should oppose the motion for appointing the committee. The Marquis of Buckingham stated, in explanation, that he had been misrepresented, no doubt unintentionally, by his noble friend, as his desire for the speedy appointment of the proposed committee proceeded from an anxiety to ascertain whether it was necessary any longer to suspend the privileges of the people. The motion was then agreed to. Lord Sidmouth said, that as their lordships had agreed to refer the message of the Prince Regent, and the papers which accompanied it, to a committee, it was now necessary to consider in what manner that committee ought to be appointed. The usual mode in which former secret committees had been appointed was by ballot; but that mode required the preparation of glasses, and the depositing of lists, which would occasion considerable delay. He thought, therefore, that immediate nomination would be more consistent with the course which had been taken. The noble viscount concluded by moving the names of the noble lords who composed the former committee, but substituting the earl of Talbot for the duke of Bedford. Earl Grey said, that though a ballot required glasses, lists, and various preparations, which would occasion a delay, he did not consider that objectionable. When it was proposed to continue the suspension of the Habeas Corpus act, it was the duty of the House to proceed with the greatest caution, and every delay was therefore an advantage. The noble earl concluded by proposing lord Rosslyn instead of the earl of Talbot, as a substitute for the duke of Bedford. Lord Holland had no objection, personal or political, to the noble earl who had been proposed by the noble viscount; but as it was understood that that noble earl was going to Ireland, he did not think him on that account the most proper per |