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which induced him to think that Lord Fitzwilliam had been harthly, and even rigorously treated. Minifters could not be ignorant of the meafures expected in Ireland after the acceffion of the Duke of Portland to the Cabinet; if they had known them from no other quarter, they must have known them from Mr. Grattan and Mr. Ponfonby, who spoke upon the fubject without referve.-If, in purfuing new meafures, Lord Fitzwilliam was not to employ men in whom he could confide, he would have been placed in a fituation very different from that of any other of his Majefty's minifters. He admitted, that there was great blame, and strong ground for inquiry; but, before voting for inquiry, he must anfwer to his own confcience cui bono? Would inquiry heal the discontents or avert the dangers in Ireland? It would have a contrary tendency. Knowing, as he did, Lord Fitzwilliam's high fenfe of honour, he did not wonder at the folicitude with which he courted inquiry; but what had already paffed on the subject was in his mind fufficient to fet at reft the most delicate feelings.

Mr. Jekyll faid, the barrennefs of the arguments urged against his motion rendered it altogether unneceffary for him to fay much in reply. He fhould not attempt to answer the panegyrics upon thofe whom Lord Fitzwilliam intended to remove from office, for they had nothing to do with the question, much lefs the Chancellor of the Excl cquer's panegyric upon his own character. It was extraordinary indeed that that Right Hon. Gentleman's defence to a very ferious charge, should be an account of his own good opinion of himself. To the question cai bono? he would answer by another-Was it of no confequence that the men, whoever they might be, whofe mifconduct had been the caufe of fo much danger to the em pire, fhould be dragged forth to public odium? If fuch was the opinion, the Houfe of Commons might refign their functions, and be content to regifter the edicts of the minifter. The Houle divided on the motion for the Order of the Day:

Ayes
Noes

188

49

Majority 139

Adjourned at half paft eleven.

HOUSE

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

WEDNESDAY, May 20.

Mr. Dent obferved, that the Committee appointed to inquire into frauds and abufes committed in franking letters and parcels, had now fat for many days. It was not likely that they fhould be able to make their report in the courfe of the prefent feffion. He therefore moved, That there be laid before the Houfe a copy of the minutes of the Committee.

Mr. Long oppofed this motion. The Committee having been appointed for the purpofe ftated in this motion, if they did not report fome ground why they did not do so, why after having fat about a month they came to make this propofal to lay what they had already done upon the table, instead of proceeding to make their report, was to him aftonishing. They were not yet fo near the end of the fellion as to make it impoffible to proceed further. On thefe grounds he objected to

the motion.

Mr. William Dundas objected alfo to the motion, on the ground that in the evidence much abuse had been imputed to individuals who had not yet had an opportunity of faying any thing in their own behalf.

Mr. Dent obferved, that as he was not aware that any objection was intended to be offered to liis motion, he had omitted to urge any arguments to enforce it. He fhould therefore beg leave to align his reafons for the motion. It appeared from what was called the Dead Letter Book, that there was loft annually to the Public, by letters miflaid or ftolen, a fum no lefs than 42,000l. a year. The Vice-President of the Poft-office gave his evidence as to the abufes of the office, for which he was difmified, although he had filled that ftation for upwards. of twenty-seven years. Before that Gentleman gave his evidence he received a letter from the Poft office, ftating, that if he knew of any abufes, he fhould inform the office of them; to which he anfwered, that he knew of none that were not as well known by themfelves. He gave his evidence before the Committee, and loft his place. Another abufe was that of keeping back newfpapers by the clerks of the road. Thefe clerks, by what they called their privilege, fent to the country twenty-five thousand newspapers a night. The only competitors which thefe clerks had in the circulation of newspapers were the hawkers, and it was a common thing for the clerks of the road, on the night there was an important debate in Parliament, or any thing that was generally interelling in newfpapers, to fend their own, and keep back the papers fent to

them

He

them by the hawkers, and this explained the mystery of gentlemen not receiving their papers regularly in the country. adverted to the abufes of the Cuftom-house and Excife-office, &c. He obferved, that by the evidence which had appeared before the Committee, a prodigious fum of money had been loft in confequence of half-guineas being fent by fervant maids and indigent people under the feals of letters. It appeared by the evidence of Ir. Bonnor, who had been ftated to be Comptroller of the Poft-office, that he is now exonerated from the duty of his office, that he attends only for about a quarter of an hour a day, for which he received 700l. a year falary, which he certainly confidered as a finecure; that Mr. Palmer had a finecure of 3000l. a year. When Mr. Bonnor applied under the direction of the Committee for an inspection of a book at the Poft-office, he was refufed the fight of it, although it was well known under what authority he came. The gentleman in that department had caufed a great number of letters to pafs free, though not entitled to fuch privilege; and it was understood that their contents were directed to the country booksellers, informing them, that if they took the town publications, magazines, &c. through certain perfons, they would not only be fent them free of poftage, but alfo at a very reduced price. Mr. Dent faid that Mr. Bonnor appeared to him to be a fenfible man, and had given his evidence very intelligibly and fairly. Upon an infpection it had alfo appeared, that thre newspapers which were packed, were many of them unftamped, and many of them old ones, containing other inclosures, and fent folely for the purpose of forwarding the letters which they contained. On the margin of fome of these were written, "I am forry I could not fend this letter fooner," i. e. I am forry I could not get an old newspaper before. He stated thefe things that the Houfe might have fome idea of the nature of the fubject. The reafon why he wished that this motion fhould be carried, was, that the House should havé fome knowledge of what abufes did exift, in order that Gentlemen should turn the fubject in their minds, before any Parliamentary regulation fhould take place. He thought that nothing fhort of a Bill for each of the offices would anfwer the purpofe.

Mr. W. Smith had no objection to the report alluded to being laid on the table, fince time was to be allowed for tlemen accufed to be heard.

gen

Mr. Long faid, that he fhould not have prefented himself a fecond time to the Speaker's notice, if it had not been on account of the extraordinary fpeech of the Gentleman who had juft fat down. He was anxious, however, to remove the

impreffion which the Hon. Gentleman's fpeech would make upon the House, if fuffered to pafs uncontradicted. The Hon. Gentleman had faid, that 42,000l. was loft to individuals, by letters containing money to that amount being either stolen or loft. He pofitively denied the fact, and begged the attention of the House to the circumftances on which this had been ftated-A book was kept at the Poft-office, in which every perfon lofing a letter containing money, entered all the cir cumftances attending the letter, the date, addrefs, &c. &c, the object of which was, that all possible inquiry might be made to recover it. This book 'contained entries in the last four months of letters containing bills or money to the amount of 14,000l.being milling at the time the entry was made; but would any Gentleman fairly infer from thence that it was loft ?-The fact was, that a great part was actually recovered, as would appear by the book. It was probable that many of the letters had been mifdirected, or mif- fent, and that in fome inftances it was recovered, though no notice had been given to the Poftoffice A great part of the fum was bills, which though actu ally loft, the individual might fuftain no pecuniary lofs.

It appeared alfo by evidence, that three fourths of what had been entered as loft in the firft inftance, had afterwards been recovered-He thought the regulation of keeping such a book a good one. He should be very happy to adopt any mode of rendering it more effectual, if fuch could be devifed: But he would not fuffer fuch an impreffion to be made upon the public mind, unwarranted as it was by fact, as the lon. Gentleman feemed difpofed to make.

The Hon. Gentleman had entered into obfervations upon the minutes of the Committee. He differed with him in the conclufions he had drawn, which the evidence did not warrant; but he would not be induced to follow in this irregularity: He fhould be glad at a future time to difcufs the fubject-at large, when the report was made, which it was the duty of the Committee to make. What the Hon, Gentleman had ftated was the evidence of Mr. Bonnor alone, and upon that he should only fay, that he received that evidence with confiderable doubt when Mr. Bonnor had reprefented himfelf as difcharged from his duty in the Poft-office, because he was almoft the only perfon there who had attempted to correct abuse.

(Here Mr. Mainwaring called Mr. Long to order for not fpeaking to the queftion.)

The Speaker faid, that the fecond fpeech of the Hon. Member who had made the motion (Mr. Dent) was fo irregular, and had deviated fo much from the question before the Houfe,

that

that he thought it fair to permit the Hon. Gentleman to reply to facts he had ftated, particularly as he had entered fully into the whole of the evidence taken before the Committee.

Mr. Long faid, that he juftified his reply only by the fpeech which the Hon. Member had been permitted to make, which contained affertions which he would prove to be unfounded, and which therefore he felt it his duty to contradict.

Sir William Pulteney obferved, that it ought to be explained how an obstruction was given to an officer of the Poft-office, acting under the authority of a Committee of that Houfe, when he applied for an infpection of a book at the Poft-office, in order to obtain information to be given to that Committee. He wished to hear fome reafons affigned upon that fubject.

Mr. William Dundas observed that Mr. Bonnor was refused the fight of the book at the Poft-office, because he was regarded there as having no right to the infpection of it any more than a stranger, for he had not taken any active part in the office for the last year. He faid he doubted whether the Deputy Chairman had been discharged, as the Hon. Gentleman had ftated, on account of the evidence he had given, with regard to abuses at the Poft-office.

Mr. Dent faid, he did not pofitively know that this Gentleman was discharged as Deputy Prefident, on account of the evidence he gave of abufes at the Poft-office, but he understood fo. He obferved alfo, that the proceedings of the Committee were very much perplexed on account of the Committee being an open Committee. Gentlemen often came in juft after a witnefs had anfwered a queftion, and not being acquainted with his previous examination infifted on going over the whole of what he had to fay again. This fort of practice retarded very much the progrefs of the Committee, and might perhaps reader it impoffible for the Committee to conclude their report at all. He therefore thought that the Committee ought to be made a clofe Committee, or that fonie fuch meafure fhould be adopted to give effect to the object which the Houfe had in view, namely, to obtain accurate knowledge of the abufes which he had already mentioned.

Sir John Call and Mr. Bernard faid a few words.

The question being put, and only 30 Members being prefent, the Houfe adjourned of courfe.

HOUSE

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