as having been displaced from fituations of high refponfibility in Ireland, and spoke in the highest terms of their refpective abilities and attention as public characters, and of their honour as private Gentlemen.-He concluded with giving his decided vote against the motion.

Mr. Douglas faid, he felt himself called upon by the turn which the debate had taken, to intrude upon the attention of the House for a few minutes. It was a duty which he owed to perfons with whom he had been connected, and which his own feelings called upon him to perform.

It was his intention to ftate in as few words as he could, confiftently with the magnitude of the subject, his reason for giving his vote against the motion of the Hon. Gentleman.: He was ready, in the moft unequivocal manner, to give hisaffent to the pofition advanced on the other fide of the Houfe, viz. That it was the duty of Parliament to watch over the conduct of the Executive Government, and to inftitute inquiries when they thought it neceffary.-But there was another pofition, equally conformable to the theory of the conftitution, and more reconcileable to its practice, which he fuld infift upon, viz. that his M jefty had the undoubted prerogative of difmifling and of appointing his own minifters, according to his pleasure. He did not mean to contend that no poffible cafe might arife, in which it might not be proper for Parliament to interfere upon the difmiffion of a minifter; but in fuch a cafe there ought to be the strongest grounds ftated to shew the neceffity of fuch an interference. The queftion, and the only one which called for confideration, was, whether there were fufficient grounds laid before the House to induce them to go into this inquiry, or, in other words, to addrefs his Majefty for the production of the papers moved for.

In order to form a correct judgment upon this part of the fubject, it would be neceffary that the Houfe fhould not be led away by the general obfervations which had been thrown out against the Government of Ireland. He had experienced an opportunity of forming a judgment upon that fubject, and hoped he should be able to convince the Houfe, not by declamation or affertion, but by pofitive proof. If there did exift that degree of corrupt influence in Ireland which had been reprefented, it must have been known to the Parliament of that country, and yet when a motion was brought forward upon that ground, in the Irish Houfe, by a Gentleman of the firft abilities and eloquence, the motion for the inquiry was negatived, he believed without a divifion, but at all events with a large majority. This was a strong proof what were the

opinions of perfons refiding upon the fpot, and the most likely to know of that corruption, if it really exifted.

It was not upon negative facts however that he meant to defend the Government of Ireland, particularly under Lord Westmorland; a variety of measures were adopted under the administration of that Noble Lord, which were calculated to gratify the feelings, and at the fame time to fupport the interelts of the people of Ireland. He would state to the House in as brief a manner as he poffibly could, the different measures to which he alluded.

He did not believe his affertion would be controverted when he faid, that the happiness of a people depended as much upon the mode of adminiftering juftice, as upon the laws under which they lived-He was forry to fay that that confideration had not always prevailed in Ireland'; too much regard had been paid to Parliamentary interefts in the diftribution of legal fituations. But during the administration of lord Weftmorland an oppofite system had been adopted, and every effort made to procure the due and impartial adminiftration of justice.

The next grand point in a Government conftituted like that. of Great Britain and Ireland was, to preferve the independence of the legislative body. This effential point was fecured, under the adminiftaation of Lord Westmorland, by the introduction of a place-bill, which difqualifies perfons holding various offices from a feat in Parliament; and even in cafes in which it did not difqualify, the acceptance of a place vacated the feat, and the Member was again fent back to his constituents to receive their judgment upon his conduct. Thus in that effenlial particular, the laws of the two countries were put upon nearly a fimilar footing. The next grand object attained in the period during which Lord Westmorland was Viceroy of Ireland, was the establishment of a refponfible Treasury Board. Formerly there ufed to be a Lord High Treasurer and a Vice Treafurer, both of whom had finecure places; but they were now replaced by an effectual and refponfible Treafury Board.

The laft point which he should allude to was, the establishment of the militia, which had been effected with a degree of fuccefs, that exceeded the most fanguine expectation; and, notwithstanding very great obftacles, had produced in one year a body of twelve thoufand men. All thefe very important regulations which took place in the time of lord Westmor land, he hoped would convince the Houfe that it was the object of that Adminiflration to reform abafes, and not to con

tinue error.

Having

Having difcuffed thefe points, Mr. Douglas requested leave to join his fincere testimony to that of others in favour of thofe Gentlemen under Government in Ireland who had been difmiffed-Having paffed the highest praifes, upon their conduct, he concluded with giving his vote against the motion.

Mr..Grey began with noticing what had fallen from Mr. Douglas. He thoght it was not neceffary to take much notice of a great deal that had been faid in oppofition to the motion. It was of little importance to the prefent queftion, whether Lord Weftmorland's Administration had been more corrupt than preceding Adminiftrations, or had relieved Ireland from fome of the abufes with which former Administrations had loaded it. He might, without any prejudice to the argument in fupport of the motion, admit every thing the Hon. Gentleman had faid in praise of Lord Weftmorland's Administration, for which, however, the people of Ireland had made this moft extraordinary and ungrateful return, that, adopting other meafures and employing other men, had rendered the Adminiftration which immediately fucceeded popular beyond all precedent! If the Hon. Gentleman who fpoke lait but one had · waited till he had heard the panegyric on Lord Westmorland's Adminiftration, he would have had an opportunity of fhewing, and, no doubt, would have fhewn, that the Duke of Rutland's was equally pure and equally meritorious. Mr. Grattan's charge of felling feats in the Irish Houfe of Peers to purchafe feats in the Irish Houfe of Commons failed, becaufe the Irish Houfe of Commons, who were the judges, refused to grant an inquiry. It would be very unbecoming to say, that the Irish or the British Houfe of Commons, in agreeing with minifters to negative motions of inquiry, could ever act improperly; and therefore he muft fuppofe that Mr. Grattan's motion, like feveral motions made here by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Fox), failed for want of ability, and was overpowered by the fuperior weight of argument and ability oppofed to it. He must however fay that Mr. Grattan's charge affected perfons who were bound to anfwer by fomething more than a vote of the Houfe of Commons; and that in all fuch cafes there was a great difference between those who offered proof, pledging their characters on its validity, and those who refufed going into inquiry. That advantage his Noble Friend (Lord Milton) now poffeffed. He challenged inquiry, he appealed to proof, which thofe to whom he imputed blame had in their power, and they fhrunk from the production of it. He was curious to hear the answer of minifters to the charge made against them; but, predetermined to refuse inquiry, VOL III. they

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they had wifely declined attempting an answer. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) was at leaft as able by the powerful aid of his eloquence to confound as to explain. When he wished to avoid facts, which he had frequent occafion to do, he entered into a magnificent declamation upon general principles, fometimes of the prerogative of the Crown, fometimes of the privilege of Parliament, juft as happened to fuit his purpose for the moment. The question was not now about general principles, but fimply and plainly whether fufficient ground was laid for inquiry into circumftances which no man could deny to be within the fcope of Parliamentary inquiry? He admitted concurrence of fentiment and of opinion among those who were jointly to conduct the affairs of Government, to be neceffary; but, after what the Houfe had heard, was the want of this all that marked the cafe before them? If Lord Fitzwilliam had differed in opinion from his colleagues, upon measures, however important, he might have been removed upon that difference before fuch measures were brought forward as the measures of Adminiftration, without affording any ground for inquiry.. Here however measures of the utmoft importance had been brought forward; the dereliction. of them had been the caufe of great difcontent and great danger; and to afcertain by whofe fault this danger had been incurred, was fit matter of inquiry. The removal of his Right IIon. Friend (Mr. Fox) from the office of Secretary of State for the Foreign Department, at a period when negotiations of the utmost confequence were depending, had been alluded to. Suppofing that to have originated in a difference of opinion with respect to recognizing the independence of America, would it have formed ground for inquiry by Parliament? Certainly not. If his Hon. Friend had offered independence to America in a way to which his colleagues in office refused to agree, then it would have been fit matter of inquiry to difcover by whofe fault an offer had been made which minifters refufed to confirm. In a more recent inftance, when the Duke of Leeds went out of office, upon the difpute with the Emprefs of Ruffia about Ock zakoff, he would fuppofe, as the Right Hon. Gentleman, when bent upon going to war, affirmed, that upon Ockzakoff depended the commerce of Poland, and the peace of Europe, and that the Duke of Leeds, without the concur rence of his colleagues, had offered to give up, viz. the whole queftion about Ockzakoff, which the Duke of Leeds had too much regard for his own honour to do, and been difmiffed in - confequence-would not that have been a fit fubject for inquiry? Such muft both the cafes have been to make them in

any refpect applicable to the prefent. If Lord Fitzwilliam had refigned in confequence of the difpute previous to his fetting out for Ireland, there would have been no ground for inquiry; but what was the cafe? He went to Ireland, he carried with him measures much defired, and eagerly expected, and while thefe were going on with the unanimous approbation of Parliament, and applaufe of the whole country, he was recalled, and his measures countermanded. To bring forward thofe measures, he had either the authority of ministers here, or he had not. Lord Fitzwilliam faid he had; the minifter durft not contradict the affertion, but when challenged to proof, reforted to general principles and evafive cafes. On the Catholic queftion in Ireland, or the removals from office, although individuals could not help forming opinions, and he had no difficulty in avowing that his own agreed with the opinion of the people of Ireland, the Houfe by this motion was not called to fay one word. All they had to confider was, "Did or did not the measures brought forward in Ireland excite the most fanguine hopes, and the dereliction of them the greatest difcontent and agitation, which it was to be feared might end In difaffection to the British government ?"-If that queftion must be answered in the affirmative, it was the duty of the Houfe to inquire by whofe fault thofe measures had been introduced, and by whofe fault they were retracted; whether by the fault of Lord Fitzwilliam, which he did not believe, or by the fault of minifters. This was the ground, and the only ground of difcuffion. It was the natural courfe of men, who had the proofs in their own hands, to court inquiry when they were confcious of innocence.However the Houfe might decide, impartial men would form their own judgment. His Noble Friend (Lord Milton) had put a home queftion-Why if the measures brought forward in Ireland, if the reform of a corrupt fyftem of Government were not intended, were Mr. Grattan and Mr. Ponfonby, men to whom, with their connexions, the people of Ireland had been accustomed to look up with expectation from them, fent for to England?-Was it expected that fuch men could be prevailed upon to go back impoftors and apoftates from their former principles? For thefe reafons he fhould vote for the motion, which he thought it would be difficult to refift by argument.

Mr. Serjeant Adair faid, he rofe with very painful feelings, not wishing to influence the vote of any Member of the Houle, but merely to ftate that, in voting himself for the Order of the Day, he did not approve of the conduct of minifters towards Lord Fitzwilliam. He went over the circumstances