MR. MUNTZ: The noble Lord has that large body of Dissenters, the Wesstated that there is greater merit in giving leyans, are not in any way recipients of charity in secret than openly. I am quite this bounty. I might say that they are ready to admit the truth of his proposition the largest body of Dissenters in the Britas applied to individual charity; but when ish empire; yet they do not come down to the charity comes from the nation, if it is these distributors and receive this bounty. money voted by the House of Commons, Therefore, as the Wesleyans do not receive the circumstances are greatly altered. it, there is no reason why any ministers of The nation has a right to know to whom its the Independent and Baptist congregations charity is given, and whether it is properly should be allowed it. It has been stated, bestowed. As to the plea of its being in the course of this debate, that this a grant which has been long established, grant arose out of some transaction conthat certainly is no reasonable ground nected with the celebrated Minister, Walwhatever upon which it can be maintained. pole; but the fact of the matter is thisWe have had too many grants of that sort this grant was given by George I. to the -too many irregular practices; and whe- Dissenters, in consequence of their adther they have existed for a day, or a herence to the House of Hanover. At month, or a year, is perfectly immaterial; that time it might have been of some use the lapse of time cannot in any way sanc- to the Dissenting bodies, because they tion that which is wrong. If it has been were small in number in proportion to a charity which ought not to have been what they are now; but since that time given, the sooner it is stopped the better; they have increased both in numbers and the greater the saving of the nation's wealth, and any one who knows the Dismoney, which is not even thankfully re-senting bodies at this moment knows very ceived by the body to whom it is pretended well that they have now no occasion for to be given, but is repudiated by them. I hope that the House will be decided against this and all religious grants for any particular sects. This has nothing to do with the question of tithe; the question of tithe is a question of rent. I know that it is so from my own experience. I know that where there is no tithe to pay, there is more rent laid on the land. But when you are granting men public money, the public ought to know all the parties, and be satisfied that their circumstances require the grant. Look at the condition in which we as a nation are now placed! I say that the public and the country ought to know who the parties are who are receiv-knowledged that there has been one gross ing this money. this grant. The small amount they receive, so far from doing any service to the Dissenting ministers who are supposed to receive it, renders them objects of suspicion and distrust with their congregations and denominations. I assure the noble Lord, that so far from being a benefit to the body of Dissenting ministers generally, it is a great disadvantage, because many of them are suspected of taking this money who are not actually in the receipt of it at all. The Dissenters generally object most strongly to the secret manner in which this grant is received. Dr. Pye Smith, one of the distributors, has ac case of malversation in its bestowal; and MR. WYLD: Sir, I am quite sure that where one has been proved, there is reason the expression which has just fallen from to suspect the existence of more. The the noble Lord, that the Dissenting minis- men who receive this grant cannot be conters who partake of this grant are in the sidered free agents. We have seen what receipt of "alms," will in future make the effect of these State grants has been them desirous to disconnect themselves in Ireland. There the Crown will not from it. The Dissenters of England of the present day still uphold those great principles for which their fathers were expatriated, and for which they suffered the loss of the whole of their property. Of this I am sure, that nearly every Dissenter throughout the empire will repudiate the grant. It is very unfair towards the large body of Dissenters in this country, that it should be stated in these estimates that this Regium Donum is for the benefit of the Dissenters of England. Why, Sir, permit any portion of the grant to be given unless the congregation give no greater stipend than 351.; the consequence of which regulation is, that a large portion of the incomes of Presbyterian ministers in Ireland are reduced to that sum in order to bring them within the required conditions of Government. The effect of this grant is most injurious and distasteful to the entire body of Dissenting ministers on whose behalf you profess to make it. What has been the case upon the present occa Thompson, G. Wyld, J. sion? There are 300 or 400 Dissenting | Thompson, Col. TELLERS. Lushington, C. List of the NOES. Abdy, T. N. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. MR. BRIGHT: I ask the noble Lord whether he will consent, so long as this grant was continued, to permit the publication of the names of those who receive it? I ask for nothing more than that; if the noble Lord feels that he cannot grant that request, then we must divide upon the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster. With regard to the plea that this grant is in the nature of alms, and must therefore be given in secret, I know well that a very high authority has said that when we give our alms we must give them in secret; but that pre-Hobhouse, T. B. cept applies only to cases in which we are giving our own money; but this grant being from a public fund, contributed from the taxes of the country, I think it would be much more desirable that it should be given openly, and in such a manner as that the public should have the means of satisfying themselves that the bounty is worthily bestowed. LORD J. RUSSELL: I have already said that I am afraid the object of obtaining these names is, that the poor recipients of the grant might be held up to obloquy That being the case, I most decidedly object to the proposition of the hon. Mem ber. The Committee divided on the question, that the sum be 4,9747. :-Ayes 28; Noes 60: Majority 32. Hood, Sir A. be granted to complete the sum required On the question that a sum of 27,8371. for Nonconforming, Seceding, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers in Ireland, MR. S. CRAWFORD, as a friend to religious liberty, did not think he was justified in assenting to any grant of this 3661. for the widows and orphans of minnature. There was, however, an item of isters of the Synod of Ulster, to which he did not object; and he should therefore move to reduce the vote by the sum of 27,4717. that the sum be 3661. :-Ayes 13; Noes The Committee divided on the question, 45: Majority 32. SUPPLY-GRATUITIES. On the question that a sum of 20,000l. be granted towards completing the sum necessary for Civil Contingencies, MR. ÖSBORNE objected to the item which was included in this vote of 4,0451. for gratuities for extra services in the Treasury and Commissariat Departments: 2,500l. of that sum had been given to Sir C. Trevelyan. Now, this was a very gross case. Sir C. Trevelyan might have laboured hard in the discharge of his duties; but so had the coast-guard of Ireland, whose services could not possibly have been dispensed with, and many of whom had contracted a violent fever in consequence of their labours, and yet no gratuity had been given to them. He would move to reduce the sum of 4,0451., and would divide the Committee upon this vote. misfortune to the country, if such services as those which had been rendered by Sir C. Trevelyan should appear to be underrated by that House. LORD G. BENTINCK hoped his hon. and gallant Friend would divide upon the question. The Committee had been informed that Sir C. Trevelyan had none of the responsibility of this particular office, and, therefore, bore none of its demerit. If so, then he presumed that that gentleman was not in a position to claim any merit that might attach to the office. If it really had been a question of merit, he should have been prepared to challenge Sir C. Trevelyan's claim, for he (Lord G. Bentinck) had read all the evidence, and he was not inclined to think that there had been such a display of ability in the discharge of his duties as some hon. Members seemed disposed to attribute to him. He would refer to one instance only as an illustration of the system which was sanctioned by that gentleman-when oatmeal was being bought for 147. a ton at Cork, Sir C. Trevelyan was having it sent out to Ireland from Deptford, where it was purchased at eighteen guineas a ton. The Committee divided on the question, that the sum be 15,950l. :-Ayes 14; Noes 73: Majority 59. Dick, Q. List of the AYES. Bentinck, Lord G. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER would simply say, that so far from this being an unprecedented matter, the Government had only followed the usual Abdy, T. N. mode of remunerating persons who had performed extraordinary services. MR. J. A. SMITII thought it only a fair act of justice to Sir C. Trevelyan to say, that though he had not the honour of his personal intimacy, he had had an opportunity of seeing the extraordinary devotion which he had shown in the discharge of his arduous and responsible duties in superintending the application of the money for the relief of the Irish. He was not saying more than the truth, when he said that thousands and thousands of the people in Ireland owed their preservation to the industry, intelligence and zeal, Sir C. Trevelyan had displayed. It would be a great Moore, G. H. Williams, J. TELLERS. Osborne, R. B. List of the NOES. Adair, R. A. S. O'Brien, Sir L. Ogle, S. C. H. Paget, Lord A. Paget, Lord C. Palmerston, Visct. Plowden, W. H. C. Reynolds, J. Romilly, Sir J. Russell, Lord J. Sheil, rt. hon. R. L. Tancred, H. W. Turner, E. Ward, H. G. TELLERS. Somervilie,rt.hon.SirW. Tufnell, H. Smith, J. A. Talfourd, Serj. Vote agreed to. Hill, Lord M. The tress prevailed was that of Clifden, in which the rate was 19s. 2d. in the pound. The valuation of the union was 22,400. The expense of maintaining the poor in that district, from September, 1847, to September, 1848, was 18,310l. They had a small debt of 9001. The advances made by the British Association were 9,000l. for general relief, 3,000l. for the relief of destitute children, and the whole amount due from the union would be upon a rated value of 22,400l., amounting to a rating in the pound of 19s. 91d. In another union in the county of Clare, the amount of rating was 16s. 10d. in the pound; in another, 158. 11d.; in another, 14s. 9d.; in Ballyra, 12s. 4d.; in Castlebar, 11s. 9d. SUPPLY-DISTRESS (IRELAND). rate in Ireland would be 2s. 92d. In Down The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- it was lighter than in most counties in QUER said, he had now to move two very England; it would there amount to 1s. 2d. heavy votes by way of supplementary esti- Taking the electoral divisions in Donegal, mates, which were necessary to wind up there were electoral divisions in which the the relief of the distress in Ireland up to charge for the maintenance of the poor this the present half year. The first item of year would be 44s. 2d. in the pound. In the vote was for 132,000l. To show that Castlebar there was an electoral division in the poor-rate had been levied to a consider- which the charge was 29s. in the pound. able amount for the same purpose, he might In Galway it would amount to 23s. 8d. observe that the whole sum collected in This was the charge in the pound upon the Ireland in January, 1846, was 36,000l.; valuation; but as it was notorious that in in January, 1847, 52,000l.; while in Jan- many of the most distressed districts, a uary, 1848, it reached 194,000l. The en- large proportion of the ratepayers could tire sum levied in the first six months of pay nothing at all, it was hopeless to ex1846 was 217,000l.; in the first six months pect that any amount of rate could defray of 1847, 339,000l.; and in the correspon- the sum which was advanced. This stateding period of 1848, 867,000l. There were, ment applied to the western coast; on the however, many parts of Ireland in which eastern and north-eastern part the burden the poor-rate, however well collected, had was lighter, which showed that the distress been found quite inadequate to relieve the was local. It was, therefore, to sanction prevailing distress. Twenty-two unions were the expenditure of 132,000l., which was in that position. The object of the Go- required from July to the end of the harvernment was, that relief should only be vest, to continue the relief which, up to given in districts respecting which it had that time, had been afforded in voluntary been shown that no possible exertion in contributions, through the means of the collecting the poor-rate would make it ade- British Association, that he asked the quate for the object. Relief had been given House to agree to the vote. There could of late almost entirely in food. As regard- not be any necessity for further assistance ed the British Association, he would state, in the way of depôts. He believed that the that the whole amount expended by it was events of the last two years had introduced 236,000l., of which sum 143,000l. went into Ireland dealers in meal and corn, so for rations for grown-up persons, 80,0007, that the guardians would be able to procure in the same way for children, and about an adequate supply of food. These were 120,000l. for clothes. The vote which he the circumstances which induced the Goproposed was for relief given in continua-vernment to take on themselves the respontion of the proceedings of the British Association in the three months immediately preceding the harvest, when the distress was the greatest. There were many unions in Ireland in which it was impossible they could defray the cost of their poor. The union in Ireland in which the greatest dis sibility of demanding this sum of money. Without the assistance thus rendered, it would have been utterly impossible for the people to have been preserved from utter starvation, except by the means which had been so beneficially applied by the British Association. He trusted that the House would ratify the responsibility which Government had taken upon themselves. Question put 66 That 262,5451. be granted to make good the advances of the sum provided for the Relief of Distress in Ireland and Scotland, through the Commissariat Department." MR. P. SCROPE said, that he had given notice of resolutions on this vote; but as he could not move those resolutions, he wished to state the absolute necessity of refusing to make grants of public money, in addition to the poor-rates, and should take the opinion of the Committee in opposition to this grant of 132,000l. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had appealed to the generosity of the House, by stating the extraordinary distress of some of the Irish unions. His opinion was, that Ireland was perfectly capable of maintaining her poor, as well as the whole of her population. But he had another and a stronger objection to this vote that it was given for the relief of such landlords as had not paid their rates. All the landlords had to do was to make out a case of inability to support the poor, and they would then receive assistance. He moved that the vote be disallowed. SIR J. TYRELL considered that strong measures with regard to Ireland should now be adopted by Government. He did not mean to be offensive to any Gentleman differing from his opinion or persuasion, but it was quite clear to him that there was a great distinction between Roman Catholics and Protestants. In the Protestant districts of Ireland the poor-rate only averaged 1s. in the pound; while in the Roman Catholic districts it varied from 19s. to 11s. in the pound. He solemnly believed that the Roman Catholic religion, carried out in all its parts, was incompatible with the true cultivation of the soil. In Switzerland, the common remark of every traveller was the great difference between the agricultural prospects of the Roman Catholic cantons and those of the Protestants. The latter were far superior to the former. He believed unless the Government took some strong measures in reference to Ireland, in which they would be followed by the universal feeling of the country, there would be repeated calls upon the coffers of this country to subscribe to Ireland. LORD JOHN RUSSELL observed, that the hon. Member for Stroud, in objecting to the vote, did not seem to consider that an immense change was going on in Ireland, nor to make due allowance for the An necessity under which both landlord and tenant were compelled to act. The burden upon landed property in Ireland had been changed from 400,000l. to 1,800,000l., in itself a great and important change. other change which had taken place in Ireland was this-that whereas, in 1836, there were no corn or provision dealers in Ireland, there were now dealers in those articles in every part of that country. Seeing the change which had taken place of late years in Ireland, and the burdens imposed, which, in particular districts pressed so heavily, he thought it was their duty to aid in the transition, and that it could not be said they in any way wasted the money of the country by assisting certain unions to bear the very great burdens which had been placed upon them, borne as these had been on the whole with a degree of readiness which was highly creditable. With respect to the future, that, no doubt, would be the subject of discussion, and he did not wish to enter upon it at that late hour. All he had to say was, that in our present circumstances he did not think it would be wise to lay down a system, or propose a plan. We did not know what was the extent of the present failure of the potato cultivation-what was the exact amount of the very great increase of potato cultivation which took place in the present year, as compared with the amount of last year; we did not know what amount would be saved, or to what period the stock would last; and under these circumstances he thought it would be very imprudent to lay down a plan. Government must, to a certain degree, rely upon the confidence of the Parliament; they would not ask it unnecessarily, or without a due regard to economy. If they saw cause to call for extraordinary measures, they would then assemble Parliament immediately, and propose to it such measures as they thought fit. In the present state of affairs, seeing the number of Members who were absent, they did not propose, at the end of the Session, to lay down any general system or plan by which they should invariably abide. Vote agreed to. The House resumed. Report to be received. The House adjourned at half-past Two. HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, August 24, 1848. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1 City of London Sewers; Sheep and Cattle Contagious Disorders Prevention; Millbank Prison; Commons Inclosure Act Amendment. |