the people were fincere, firm, and true to themselves, the falvation of this country might yet be effected.

to

The lords in adminiftration, or office, oppofed the motion more particularly upon the two follow ing grounds, which afforded objections to it, they contended, that were totally infurmountable. The first was the impropriety, and even the incompetency, of one houfe of parliament to come any refolution, which went eventually to bind and conclude the proceedings of the other. That houfe had no more power or authority over the other, than the other had over that. It would therefore be in the highest degree abfurd and nugatory, to refolve or vote a matter, which when refolved or voted, could carry no efficacy whatever without their Own walls. The other ftrong ground of objection was, the impropriety of the interference of that house, and indeed its total incompetency, with respect to the inftituting in the first inftance of any enquiry, or the attempting to exercife any power of control or reform, in relation to the public expenditure. That was a business folely appertaining to the other houfe. It was an exclufive inherent privilege, which they neyer would part with upon any account, directly or indirectly; neither by compofition, compromife, or compact. The care and management of the public purfe, and the confequent controul of the public expenditure, had for a long feries of years, and even of ages, been in the exclufive poffeffion of the commons. Both houfes had their peculiar rights and privi

leges. Time, ufage, and acquief cence, had given the lords an exclufive power in matters of judicature; the claim of originating money bills, by the other house, had the fame authority to fupport it. If the lords controverted their rights in public matters, the commons would, probably, difpute in turn the power of judicature in the laft refort exercised by the

peers.

They obferved, that contefts between both houfes ought, at all times and on all occafions, to be carefully provided against and prevented; but much more fo in feafons of great difficulty, such as the prefent confeffedly was, when harmony and mutual confidence were become indifpenfibly neceffary to the carrying on of public bufinefs, and to the fafety of the state. That fuch difputes had arifen in the beginning of Queen Anne's reign, which produced great heats and difagreements within doors, and much diffatisfaction and difcontent without; infomuch that the queen found herfelf under a neceffity of dif folving her parliament, in order to prevent matters from being carried to extremity.

They reprefented the accountant bills which had been paffed in the reigns of William and Anne, as originating merely in, and being fupported only by faction. Infifted, that they were found to anfwer no good purpose whatever; and to have proved nugatory as to the attainment of any substantial or defirable object. And that accordingly, foon after the acceffion of the houfe of Hanover, when that illuftrious family came to be firmly established on the throne; [G] 4

when

when faction, tumult and fedition were crushed; and the continual fluctuation of councils which perplexed and diftracted the two preceding reigns, had given way to Readinefs and stability; an end was then deservedly and wifely put, to the continuance or renewal of that, at least, ineffective law, which it had for fome time been the fashion to pafs annually, for examining, controlling, and ftating the public accounts of the kingdom.

A great law lord, highly eminent for his acutenefs, learning, and ability, ftrongly contended, that the proposed or intended reformation implied in the motion, fo far as it related to contracts, and the improper expenditure of the public money, was wholly unneceffary, as the powers already in being, were fully competent to the attainment of redrefs, without any new ones being created for that purpose. In fupport of this affertion he cited a cafe within his own knowledge, which happened many years fince, when he was attorney-general, at which time he profecuted a governor to conviction, who had been guilty of fome fraud with refpect to the cloathing of a regiment. What ever bargain or contract, he said, was made with government, the law fuppofed it to be a bona fide tranfaction, and that the crown had full value, and an equitable equivalent; and the law, in every fuch tranfaction, gave a power of redrefs, either by punishing the perfon who should be detected in defrauding the public, or by allowing the contractor only fuch a fum, as his fervices or his commodity deferved. He farther

ftated, that the minifter, and every other person acting under the crown, were already, in fact, as refponfible for the expenditure of every part of the public money which paffed through their hands, as it was poffible for the law to render them. They were amenable both to the crown and parliament; to the firft in his majesty's courts of law, and to the latter, in their inquifitorial capacity.

He

Nothing excited fo much indignation on that fide, as that paffage in the motion, which rendered the lords in office, and all thofe who enjoyed any emolument or penfion under the crown, incapable of being members of the propofed committee. But it was more particularly refented, and that with no common degree of warmth, by a noble earl lately come into adminiftration. declared it was a libel on the whole body of the peerage, as it fuppofed, that fuch of their lordfhips as enjoyed places under government were, from that cir cumftance, liable to be warped from their duty, and to give corrupt opinions on a queftion, which it was maintained in argument was intended, and would effect, the falvation of their country. It was, he would maintain, a general and direct libel upon that house, and a particular libel upon every noble lord who ftood in the defcribed predicament. It was a libel on himself as an individual; and he affirmed, from his own knowledge, that it was falfe and unfounded.

Some other lords who were in the fame predicament, and who likewife objected to that exclufion in the motion, did not go fo far

in their refentment; and were fatisfied to affert their own independence and integrity, notwithftanding any favours they owed to the crown. A noble earl in particular, who had lately been at the head of a commiffion abroad, of the higheft truft, and of, perhaps, the greateft poffible importance, and who was then at the head of an office of honour and dignity at home, fpoke highly, in the beginning of the debate, in favour of the principle on which the prefent motion was founded. And while he gave his own fulleft approbation to the principle, declared the attempt to be fo truly meritorious, as highly to deferve the attention of every noble lord present. He only lamented that the paffage in queftion, fhould, at this moft critical and perilous crifis, exclude any noble lord, from rendering every service he was capable of to his country; and thought it extremely ill judged, at fuch a season, to cut off the committee from the affiftance of fome of the first characters and ableft men in the kingdom. From this circumftance, although he moft cordially approved of the object which the motion pointed to, he found himself in the difagreeable predicament of not being permitted to give a vote either way; but if this objection were removed, the propofition fhould meet with his maft hearty affent.

The fubject of the county meetings, petitions and affociations, was the means of introducing much warmth of language and fentiment, feverity of ftricture, and bitterness of obfervation and reply, in the courfe of the debate. A noble lord newly come

into adminiftration, having charged the motion with the feveral defects of informality, abfurdity, and inefficacy with respect to its avowed object, paffed feveral fevere ftrictures on the fuppofed motives and intentions, which led to its being brought forward at the prefent time. He affirmed, that it was meant to combine the motion with the petitions now before, and daily presenting to the other houfe; that as the petitions themfelves had been promoted by the moft unjustifiable and improper means, fo the motion was certainly intended to bear a relation to them, in order to embarrass government, and throw an odium on his majesty's confidential advisers. That, if the motion operated at all, it could be only in that way. The petitions and their contents were in general created; and when they feemed to arife fpontaneoufly, and from fentiment, which he believed to be the cafe in very few inftances, they were founded in no better than abfurd, impracticable notions of public reformation, and fpecious theories, calculated to mislead the nation, as being directed to objects, either unattainable, or which, if attained, must undermine the constitution, and finally lead to public confufion. That the motion would produce effects fimilar to the county petitions if agreed to; it would embroil both houfes, impede public bufinefs, and tend to anarchy and confufion.

A noble earl, who had likewife lately come into office, having endeavoured to fhew the informality, impracticability, and libellous tendency of the motion, proceeded to reprobate, in highly

Indignant and paffionate terms, the county meetings and petitions. He faid they originated merely in factious motives, and in factious motives too of the very worst complexion. They tended to ufurp the powers of government, and to compel parliament to conceffions of the most dangerous and unconftitutional nature; they were fet up as another eftate, unknown to the conftitution. They would, if not timely fuppreffed, lead to anarchy and public confufion. As yet, they had been cautiously and artfully kept within the verge of the law, though, in fact, they reached to the very brink of rebellion. He denied that they were the fenfe of the nation at large; and he hoped, whatever malignant fpirit gave them birth, that it would be inftantly crushed. There was nothing but refolution and firmnefs, which he was perfuaded their lordships would never want, when their rights were attempted to be invaded, neceffary to fubdue them; and if he had no other reason for oppofing the prefent motion in all its parts, he could find in his own mind a fufficient motive for giving it a negative, from its being fo nearly allied in principle and in object, to that factious, dangerous, innovating, and unconftitutional fpirit, which had given exiflence to the county meetings.

He concluded, by declaring he was fatisfied, that the prefent motion was framed in fuch a manner as muft enfure it a negative, in order thereby to throw an odium upon adminiftration, and give an opportunity to its friends and fupporters to enter a flaming proteft, which, being foon publifhed, and

making its way into the country, would ferve to foment and increafe that fpirit of fedition and difaffection, which both the authors and friends of this motion wished to diffeminate through every part of the kingdom.

Such language and charges could not pafs without reprehenfion; but we shall firft attend to the means used for removing the objections which were made to the motion upon its Own bottom. The lords in oppofition expreffed their furprize, to hear the point of informality fo much laboured, and fo long dwelt upon, without the propofal of a remedy where it might be fo eafily applied, and without a fingle argument of any weight being brought against the main object of the motion. The noble framer, they faid, had avowedly left it open, in order to afford room for its being rendered palateable to all parties. The principle of the motion, public reformation and national œconomy, formed the only objects of confideration; and it mattered nothing how it might be new framed, altered and modified, fo thefe were promoted. One fimple remedy was obvious and at hand, which would effectually remove that informality upon which fo much frefs was laid, and that was a matter of no greater difficulty than merely omitting the words "both houfes ;" and the motion would then run- That a committee be appointed." It was a mere matter of form; and upon a queftion of fo great importance, and a bufinefs of fuch evident neceflity, fuch, paltry cavils were in. excufable, and even shameful.

With regard to the objection of

Interfering with the other houfe in money matters, they faid, that without entering at all into the question as an abstract propofition, and without any occafion for at all measuring the peculiar rights and privileges of either houfe of parliament, this objection would be as eafily done away as the former. The fimple meafure of a conference would equally remove every difficulty with refpect to both. All queftions with refpect to points of order, or exclufive privilege, would inftantly vanish, when both houses agreed in principle, and united in opinion, upon the neceffity of a reform. But abftracted from that remedy, no noble lord prefent noble lord prefent would deny, but that houfe had a right of enquiry in fuch matters, fo far as the difpofal of public monies came under their cognizance as a deliberative body; it fignified very little which houfe took up the bufinefs, fo that the object. was obtained; the matter could not be finally fettled without the aid of an act of parliament; and in that cafe, either house had its power of affenting or diffenting to whatever came from 'the other.

A noble duke on the fame fide, went ftill farther on that ground. He infifted, and with great frength of argument and knowledge of the fubject endeavoured to demonftrate, that the Houfe of Lords was fully competent to enquire into the expenditure of public money; to examine and controul both its receipt and iffue; and to punish delinquents, if any fuch could be found. He cited examples to fhew that they had often exercifed thofe powers; and declared, he never would fuffer the petty purposes of a faction to lead

to a furrender of their inherent rights.

The noble duke likewife ftrongly controverted the position held out on the other fide, that the article of exclufion proposed in the motion, was a libel upon the whole body of the peerage, and particularly fo upon the fervants of the crown. He argued, that the intended exclufion was formed upon the fpirit of the English conftitotion, and upon the whole plan of English jurisprudence. The law, at leaft the common law of England, always excluded perfons from acting in any fituation which concerned others where they might be fuppofed to act under partiality, influence, or prejudice, or to have any local or native bias on their minds. Such was the cafe in the conflituting of juries, both in civil and criminal matters; fuch was the cafe of a judge going the circuit into a country in which he was born or poffeffed property; and fuch in a great variety of other inftances.

Such general legal pro

vifions, and prudential cautions, which went to guard against the weaknefs, infirmities, the paffions, and the vices of mankind at large, to preferve individuals from being expofed to the dangerous trials of needlefs and improper temptation, and even to fence in private character from undue fufpicion, could never be fuppofed to convey reflection or imputation against any man, or body of men.

In respect to the declarations of the court lords, relative to the manner of obtaining the petitions, many other lords arofe to give the most unqualified contradiction in point of fact, as to several matters which were ftated on the other